In the original article of this series, I submitted reasonable estimates, based on Prof. Kola’s description of Belzec mass grave # 10 and other evidence, which show that this mass grave contains human remains corresponding to at least twice the 6,000 dead bodies that Gerdes had yelled for in his post of Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:02 pm on the CODOH thread Gerdes pledges to pay Kola's Sobibor bill (6,000 dead bodies are 1 % of the 600,000 people killed at Belzec according to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, proof of which were one of the conditions supposedly entitling an applicant to the NAFCASH reward of $100,000 before Gerdes decided it was safer for him to exclude Belzec and Chelmno extermination camps from his "challenge" and leave only Sobibor and Treblinka there).
Following these estimates I explained why Gerdes would be demanding something very difficult if not impossible to accomplish if, instead of accepting a reasonable estimate as proof, he were to call for a precise physical quantification of the human remains inside grave # 10.
I then asked him the following questions:
So which of them is it, Mr. Gerdes?
Will you accept a reasonable, evidence-backed estimate, like those presented above, as proof that Belzec grave # 10 contains the remains of at least 6,000 dead people?
If so, better go get your money.
Or will you require a precise physical quantification that, for the reasons described above, is very difficult if not impossible to accomplish?
If so, thanks a lot for once more exposing your utter fraudulence..
The estimates of human remains in Belzec grave # 10, the explanation why it would be unreasonable, even fraudulent, to require a precise physical quantification of those remains as proof instead of accepting a reasonable estimate as such, and the above questions, were also posted on the VNN thread Archeological Investigations of Treblinka, see my post # 1127.
What was Gerdes’ reaction?
Apart from the customary hysterical yelling on the VNN thread, which I shall deal with after finishing this article, he went whining to his CODOH buddies. In his post of Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:29 pm on the thread Gerdes pledges to pay Kola's Sobibor bill, he quoted my statements, leaving out only the final remark ("If so, thanks a lot for once more exposing your utter fraudulence..") and then indulged in more or less the kind of howling I had predicted in the 1st update, including a new question about teeth (always shifting the goalposts, aren’t you, Gerdes?) and the inevitable "what part of the word proof do you not understand" – mantra:
OMFG, how does one describe such insanity? It even admits that - "How many such layers are inside grave # 10 we do not know."
and what it's presented as "proof" isn't proof, but rather "an estimate."
"If, on the other hand, what Gerdes wants to see is a physical quantification of human remains contained in grave # 10 at Belzec and an expert's confirmation that the remains so quantified correspond to at least 6,000 human bodies, his requirements are at least very difficult to meet."
Proving that the dullest of the dull not only didn't meet the requirements, but it knew that the requirement of "proof" wasn't met.
Yet it still presented such drivel as proof!
Pure, unadulterated insanity. Wow!
I have three follow up questions for the dull one:
1 - How much human remains did Kola actually find in Belzecs grave #10?
2 - Out of the alleged 1,920,000 teeth allegedly in said "huge mass grave," how many teeth did he find?
3 - Just what part of the word proof do you not understand?
So Gerdes is obviously requiring precise physical quantification of human remains in Belzec grave # 10, which would imply
i) Excavating this mass grave (something that Prof. Kola did not do due to considerations of respect for the dead he had to comply with, see Part 1 of my Mattogno-Belzec article),
ii) Extracting the layers of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal" contained therein,
iii) Separating the crematory remains from the charcoal,
iv) Establishing the weight and volume of the crematory remains thus separated and
v) Having an expert provide an assessment of the number of human bodies to which these crematory remains correspond.
First of all, it is unlikely that anyone will obtain permission to excavate any of the Belzec mass graves, already because the area has been turned into an elaborate memorial.
Second, even if excavations were to be authorized, despite the disturbances of the memorial area they would presumably imply, long and arduous archaeological work would be required to remove the aforementioned layers of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal" from the mass grave.
Third, once the layers of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal" had been extracted from the grave, how would one separate the charcoal from the crematory remains in a manner that allows for accurately quantifying the latter? I strongly doubt that this is possible. But maybe Gerdes can tell us how he would do it.
Fourth, assuming that the crematory remains can be separated from the charcoal in a manner allowing for reliably quantifying the crematory remains, could an expert in matters of cremation accurately establish to how many human beings these remains belonged? One doesn’t have to be a cremation expert to realize that this is impossible, considering the variables involved, and that the most an expert can provide is an estimate based on assumptions that, however reasonable and realistic they may be, cannot be empirically confirmed.
In other words, Gerdes is requiring something that is very hard if not impossible to accomplish, thereby showing that – big surprise – his bigmouthed "challenge" is just another showpiece of fraudulent rhetoric.
Thank you, Mr. Gerdes!
It seems that Gerdes is not wholly unaware of what he has done, judging by what I read as a lame attempt to "justify" his position that the evidence-backed estimates I submitted cannot be reasonably considered proof of a certain minimum quantity of human remains in Belzec grave # 10:
* Of course, this begs the question: If the above is "proof" that Belzecs grave #10 contains the remains of 1% of the alleged mass murder at Belzec, then why didn't the dull one submit it to "skeptic" magazine and lay claim to THE FINAL SOLUTION FORENSIC CHALLENGE when it had the chance?
I guess that "when it had the chance" means "before Gerdes decided it was safer for him to exclude Belzec and Chelmno extermination camps from the NAFCASH challenge and leave only Sobibor and Treblinka there".
The answer to Gerdes' above attempt at an argument is simple: because, as I told him several times during our discussions on VNN, I considered that, for the purpose of deciding whether or not an applicant had met the requirements of the challenge and was thus entitled to the reward, Gerdes was free to define his standards of proof, even if they were unreasonable and at odds with the standards applied in criminal investigation and historical research, provided only that he required nothing that was impossible to achieve for physical, administrative or legal reasons – for that would make his challenge a fraudulent one.
I accordingly tried to get Gerdes to define more precisely the requirements of the NAFCASH challenge and to state what exactly he would accept as proof meeting those requirements.
The certain result of these efforts is summarized in my VNN post # 903, which is also referred to in this article:
Readers will further remember Gerdes’ persistent refusal to define more precisely the requirements of the NAFCASH challenge and to state what exactly he would accept as proof meeting those requirements, even though I made it real easy for him by providing a draft of such specification and asking him to modify it as he considered necessary (see my posts # 506 under http://220.127.116.11/showpost.php?p=804082&postcount=506 , # 528 under http://18.104.22.168/showpost.php?p=804176&postcount=528 , # 536 under http://22.214.171.124/showpost.php?p=804206&postcount=536 , # 540 under http://126.96.36.199/showpost.php?p=804216&postcount=540, # 545 under http://188.8.131.52/showpost.php?p=804233&postcount=545 , # 566 under http://184.108.40.206/showpost.php?p=804527&postcount=566 , among others) . The staple reply to my suggestion was the idiotic "what part of proof do you not understand?" – rhetoric. Asked if this meant submission to reasonable standards of proof such as applied in criminal investigation and historical research, Gerdes ignored the question..
The presumable other result was that the specification draft I repeatedly asked him to confirm made Gerdes realize that it was too risky to keep Belzec and Chelmno (regarding which detailed reports or articles specifying the exact location and dimensions of mass graves have been published, based on archaeological research) in his "challenge", as I hinted in my VNN posts # 827 and # 1040.
Gerdes' insecurity about his position regarding proof – and the fact that he doesn't know what he's talking about when he throws the term around – further become apparent from the announcement, in his aforementioned CODOH post and in his subsequent post of Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:31 pm, that he will accept my estimates as proof entitling to his Belzec $5,000 reward (the requirement of which is now down to 600 instead of 6,000 dead bodies for greater publicity effect) if Archaeology magazine accepts my estimates for publication.
Harking back to VNN posts in which I pointed out that his excluding Archaeology magazine as a source for an applicant to the NAFCASH reward to publish his evidence in was a cowardly and dishonest shifting of the goalposts, Gerdes feigns reconsidering his slime-ball game:
You got your wish crybaby. Now let's see if they will publish your "proof."
(After all, you do want $5,000.00 donated to The Sobibor Archaeolgoy Project in your name, don't you?)
I have no problem with submitting my estimates to Archaeology magazine, but I’d rather do it for $100,000 than for $5,000, and I also don't want Gerdes to get away with his cowardly goal-post-shifting.
So what I want is the NAFCASH challenge to be put back to where it was when I accepted it.
At that time, according to a screenshot taken on 18.07.2008, the challenge requirements read as follows (emphasis added):
THE FINAL SOLUTION FORENSIC
Also includes the alleged holocausts at Belzec, Chelmno and Sobibor.
* * * * *
You must prove the grave’s exact location and its exact dimensions - however, to qualify for the reward;
You need only to prove that the grave contains the remains of just one percent of the alleged mass murder.
And the publication options included Archaeology magazine besides Michael Shermer’s Skeptic magazine (emphasis added):
And since the Archaeology Institute of America has explicitly endorsed the veracity of the official version of the holocaust / pure extermination centers and the authenticity of these alleged archeological investigations / findings, ARCHAEOLOGY MAGAZINE (published by said institute) should be more than willing to publish the results of any scientific investigation that claims to have proven that these asinine pure extermination center legends have been forensically proven to be a fact. Therefore, one can also lay claim to THE FINAL SOLUTION FORENSIC CHALLENGE TM reward by having said claims / results published in ARCHAEOLOGY Magazine.
Gerdes is requested to put Archaeology magazine back on the NAFCASH site as a publication option, and to re-include Belzec and Chelmno in the challenge. When he has done that, I shall submit my estimates to Archaeology magazine as proof that the human remains in Belzec grave # 10 correspond to at least 6,000 dead people, or one per cent of the number of victims of Belzec extermination camp according to the Encyclopedia for the Holocaust (the encyclopedia's estimate is too high, by the way - according to Höfle's report to Heim of 11 January 1943, the number of Jews deported to Belzec within the scope of Einsatz Reinhart was 434,508).
If Gerdes is so sure that Archaeology magazine will reject my submission, what should keep him from doing that?
What is he afraid of?
As an epilogue to the above, I note that Gerdes' desperate yelling for attention on the thread Gerdes pledges to pay Kola's Sobibor bill has finally got him company (congratulations, Mr. Gerdes!).
In his posts of Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:13 pm and Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:30 pm, the pitiable loon who aptly calls himself "MrNobody" posted, besides an inane conspiracy theory about Archaeology not wanting to "fall afoul of the ADL" and bitching about someone he still has to meet in open debate (instead of, as becomes a whimpering coward, mouthing off on a forum to which the subject of his mouthing has no access), a wish list of "real physical & scientific proof" he wants to see (something that Gerdes was never able or willing to provide, incidentally – "MrNobody" gets points for at least going into detail).
Questions to "MrNobody" (which Gerdes is kindly requested to forward to him, together with an invitation for "MrNobody" to show up on RODOH or VNN for a chat with me):
1. Why should anyone care what an intellectual midget like you wants to see or would accept as "real physical & scientific proof"? Gerdes at least offers money in return for his requirements being met (though he doesn’t dare to specify what he would accept as proof meeting them). What have you got to offer?
2. What rules or standards of evidence you can show us are your requirements based on?
3. What is the relevance of what you demand for proving mass murder at the Nazi extermination camp in question?
4. What mass killings of similar dimensions that you accept as factual have been considered proven by criminal justice authorities and historians based solely or mainly on the kind of "real physical & scientific proof" you clamor for?
Questions like the above have often been asked to Gerdes and other "Revisionists", but I don’t remember one who even tried to answer them.
Let’s see if "MrNobody" is the first. :-)
PS: The bigmouthed babbling in Gerdes' post of Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:04 pm makes my above questions:
If Gerdes is so sure that Archaeology magazine will reject my submission, what should keep him from doing that?
What is he afraid of?
even more pertinent.
Thank you, Mr. Gerdes.