2nd update, 24.07.2008, 23:55 hours GMT
Update on 26.07.2008, 15:08 hours GMT
Did Gerdes invite "Hannover" Hargis to come over to VNN and discuss with me there directly?
Of course not. Gerdes is too chicken-shit to extend my invitation, and "Hannover" Hargis would be much too chicken-shit to accept it.
Instead we continue being treated to the amusing and instructive spectacle of two miserable "Revisionist" cowards talking about an opponent on a forum to which, as both of them know, that opponent has no access.
And what is more, stinking coward Gerdes hasn’t even yet had the courage to give the CODOH clowns a link to the VNN discussion. Obviously there are things on that thread that Gerdes doesn’t want to show to his brothers-in-spirit.
That’s "Revisionism" in all it’s splendor, folks.
Now let’s look at the latest showpieces of "Revisionist" imbecility on the Cesspit’s thread Muehlenkamp accepts nafcash's challenge.
Gerdes, Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:25:
Let's look at the lies of the fraud Kola:
WARSAW (Reuters) - Polish archaeologists excavating the Nazi death camp in Sobibor said they have found mass graves at the site. The excavations could provide valuable new evidence on the number of victims. “We uncovered seven mass graves with an average depth of five meters. In them there were charred human remains and under them remains in a state of decay” archaeologist Andrzej Kola was quoted by the Polish PAP news agency telling a news conference. He said the largest grave measured 70 by 25 meters, the others 20 by 25 meters."
When you look at the following video of the "huge mass graves," please notice how narrow they are. 20 - 25 meters wide? Nonsense, they look to me like they are 4 meters wide. And there is NOTHING "uncovered" or "excavated." And notice the lie in the video title - the "pits." LOL!!! All we have is two depressions in the soil. NO EVIDENCE WHAT-SO-EVER of human remains. All we have is a cognitive illusion. Look at this crap and see for yourself what a joke this fraudulent claim by Kola is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvPO31XgL8w&feature=related"]YouTube - SobibÃ³r - the pits
BTW, did you notice how young the trees were in those depressions?
Did Shermer inspect these "pits" during his "firsthand investigation" of the camp.
First of all, Gerdes is obviously assuming that the depressions shown in Alan Heath’s Sobibor video are the mass graves found by Prof. Kola in 2001. Actually the filmmaker makes no statement in this sense, and he’s not even sure that the depressions he shows are mass graves. On the contrary, he expressly acknowledges that there could be a "forestry reason" for these depressions.
Second, would the width of the depressions, assuming they are related to the mass graves found by Prof. Kola in 2001, necessarily contradict Prof. Kola’s findings? I don’t think so. The soil need not have sunk throughout the width of any given mass grave but may have remained higher in some parts than in others.
Third, the absence of anything "uncovered" or "excavated" in the depressions, assuming they are related to the mass graves found by Kola in 2001, does not mean anything at all, considering that Heath’s video was put on YouTube on 26 March 2007 and probably made not long before that. What excavations Prof. Kola conducted were probably covered up when he concluded his work in 2001, so expecting to see signs of these excavations today is just stupid.
Fourth, Gerdes' howling about no evidence of human remains being shown in Heath's video is even more stupid. If these depressions are related to the mass graves discovered by Prof. Kola in 2001 – and that need not be so, see above – the human remains would of course be underground and thus not visible on the video. Duh!
Fifth, what is the age of the trees in the depressions supposed to mean? I’d say it means nothing either way. It speaks neither in favor nor against the assumption that these depressions are related to the mass graves found by Prof. Kola in 2001.
To sum it up, Gerdes has just shown once more what a bleeding idiot he is.
Gerdes’ babbling at the end of this post about Michael Shermer – who I never referred to as a source – is meaningless except insofar as it again reveals Gerdes' pathological obsession with this gentleman, which has amused me throughout my discussions with Gerdes on Topix and on VNN.
Gerdes, Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:28 pm:
I kid you not folks, only a certifiable nut case or a paid professional liar could come up with this - This is Muehlenkamp's latest:
"Try explaining why charred human remains and remains in a state of decay should be visible on any given core-drilling sample from mass graves that can be expected to largely or mostly contain cremains Mr. Gerdes."
Mmmmm. She quotes Kola to say that his word alone is proof that the Sobibor holocaust has been proven by archeological means:
WARSAW (Reuters) - Polish archaeologists excavating the Nazi death camp in Sobibor said they have found mass graves at the site. The excavations could provide valuable new evidence on the number of victims. “We uncovered seven mass graves with an average depth of five meters. In them there were charred human remains and under them remains in a state of decay” archaeologist Andrzej Kola was quoted by the Polish PAP news agency telling a news conference.
Then asks how anyone could believe that what Kola says he found could be found!
This of course begs the question - If Muehlenkamp isn't a paid professional liar, then - Is he mentally ill or retarded?
Either way, she's priceless isn't she?
Like Hannover says - It's so easy.
What is actually easy is to once more demonstrate, on hand of his above babblings, what a sorry idiot Mr. Gerdes is.
The poor fellow seems to believe there is a contradiction between Prof. Kola’s description of the mass graves’ contents in a press conference and the presence of what seems to be mixed ashes of human bone and tissue on these two photos of drill samples:
and what seems to be either bone ash or lime on this photo of a core drill sample:
Why should there be such a contradiction?
First of all, I don’t know – as I expressly pointed out on VNN – if these core drill samples are related to Prof. Kola’s 2001 investigation or to later archaeological work.
Second, how does Gerdes know what core samples of "charred human remains" would look like and that they would look different from the light-gray substance visible on the core samples in the first two photographs shown above?
Third and most important, assuming that core samples of "charred human remains" would have a different aspect, how would the presence of "charred human remains" in the Sobibor mass graves rule out the presence of ashes? Even if some of the bodies were not reduced to mere ashes and bone fragments, the incineration of the bodies on grids at Sobibor must have produced lots of such smaller remains, and it stands to reason that these were not left lying around and neither necessarily taken somewhere to be scattered, but returned to the mass graves together with the incompletely burned remains that are suggested by the term "charred human remains" – assuming this is a correct translation of what Prof. Kola told the Polish news agency in Polish language.
So there’s no banana again for Mr. Gerdes, sorry. The chimp just showed once more that he forgot to think before writing.
Now let’s have a look at one of the subterfuges that charlatans like Gerdes resort to when they have no arguments: hollow derision meant to create the impression that what is being derided is oh-so-ridiculous:
Gerdes, Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:46 pm
I'm serious here folks, a person just couldn't make this stuff up (unless of course you were a member of holocaust controversies).
These are photos that Muehlenkamp is trying to claim are, and again, these are his EXACT WORDS: "what is visible in these samples is quite interesting. The color of the soil, judging by the soil surface visible on these photographs, is a light brown. Yet these samples show layers underground that are light gray and black (f5, f6 &f7):"
"How about ashes of human bone and tissue for the light gray stuff, wood ashes for the black stuff and pure bone ashes or lime for the white stuff, Mr. Gerdes? ...there’s no reason indeed to doubt the accuracy of the corroborating descriptions and photographic depictions of physical evidence that we have seen so far from Sobibor. Any other idea what those light grey, black and white substances in the light-brown soil of Sobibor might be, Mr. Gerdes? Let’s hear."
What is actually priceless is Gerdes' tacit admission that he cannot explain what, other than ashes of human bone and tissue and bone ashes or lime, those light grey, black and white substances in the light-brown soil of Sobibor could possibly be. I asked him several times on VNN, last time in my post # 826:
The light gray substance on the first two photos looks like ashes of human bone and tissue to me. I’ve seen such ashes elsewhere, hence the association.
The black substance on the second photo looks like wood ash to me. There’s a gray streak in the middle of the black suggesting that some human ashes may be there as well.
The white substances on the third photo could be either bone ash or the lime that was poured upon the dead bodies in the mass graves.
Now let’s see what alternative possibilities you come up with, Gerdes. Instead of seeking refuge in infantile derision and silly laughter, tell us what other than human ashes, wood ashes or lime the substances on these photos of Sobibor core drill samples, clearly distinguishable from the light-brown soil, could possibly be.
Needless to see, there’s nothing resembling an answer to this question amidst the chimp’s hysterical howling in his recent VNN posts (nos. 835, 836 and 837, which I’ll have the pleasure of shredding later on). How could there be? The sorry charlatan can offer no alternative explanation for what those light grey, black and white substances in the light-brown soil of Sobibor might be. And to cover up this obvious fact, he resorts to his above-quoted derision, obviously in the hope that fellow retards will gain the impression that he is considers it below his dignity to respond to my pertinent questions because they are oh-so-fucking-stupid.
That’s "Revisionism", folks – charlatanry masked by the arrogant feigning of superior knowledge.
Now to my old friend Jonnie "Hannover" Hargis and his post of Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:39 am, see if he fares better than poor little Gerdes.
How pathetically desperate Muehlenkamp and his gang are. This is so easily debunked that it's embarrassing.
So Hargis will now explain what Gerdes couldn’t explain, i.e. what, other than human ashes, wood ashes or lime, the substances on the shown photos of Sobibor core drill samples, clearly distinguishable from the light-brown soil, could possibly be?
I can’t quite believe it, but let’s read what he’s got ...
Where's the excavation to examine?
Prof. Kola’s 2001 excavation (which the photographed core samples need not be related to) was probably covered up when his work was completed in 2001. Current excavations by the Sobibor Archaeological Project, insofar as not covered up for the winter at the end of 2007 and not yet reopened this year, can probably be viewed at the present time. Now, why must there be an "excavation to examine" for an archeologist’s description of his investigation results to be considered reliable? And what has this got to do with the question what, other than human ashes, wood ashes or lime, the substances on the shown photos of Sobibor core drill samples, clearly distinguishable from the light-brown soil, could possibly be?
Where's the visible layers to review?
Why must there be "visible layers to review" for an archeologist’s description of his investigation results to be considered reliable? And what has this got to do with the question what, other than human ashes, wood ashes or lime, the substances on the shown photos of Sobibor core drill samples, clearly distinguishable from the light-brown soil, could possibly be?
I’m looking forward to what "Hannover" will come up with as answer to these questions, Mr. Gerdes. You will invite him to come to VNN, won’t you?
We see laughable posed pictures of some guys supposedly taking core samples. Note the woman poring over a laptop for effect, nice touch. ?
Indulging in baseless insinuations of manipulation, "Hannover" continues to studiously avoid any statement about what, other than the human remains or lime that their appearance suggests, the light-gray or white substances on the photographed core samples might be.
Where's the verifiable lab analysis of human remains?
While such a lab analysis was conducted regarding core samples from the Belzec mass graves (it is mentioned in Prof. Kola’s report about the 1997-1999 investigations at Belzec), I don’t know if it was made regarding the core samples shown on the photographs under assessment. Further information about this can probably be obtained from the Friends of Sobibor Remembrance association, on whose website these photographs are featured. And again, how is this supposed to answer the question what, other than the human ashes, wood ashes or lime that their appearance suggests, the substances on the photographed core samples might be?
Where the proof the any verified human remains are in the numbers that are absurdly alleged?
In the documentary and eyewitness evidence proving the murder of at least about 150,000 human beings at Sobibor, Mr. Hargis. And in the size of the Sobibor mass graves, established by Prof. Kola, which is in line with and corroborates that evidence. Nobody has yet exhumed let alone counted the human remains contained in the mass graves of Sobibor, for sure. But I don’t think you can show us any rules or standards of evidence according to which this must be done, explain any logic whereby this would be necessary in order to establish the extent of mass murder at Sobibor, or many mass murders you accept as factual where the number of victims was established by counting the physical remains.
Ah, and the only absurdity here is your baseless allegation that the documentary, eyewitness and physical evidence pointing to mass murder at Sobibor was all manipulated by some sinister conspiracy.
Where's the proof that any verfied human remains are a result of murder? Typhus and other disease were rampant during the war, especially eastern Europe.
That may be so, but it happens that human remains found at Sobibor were found at a place that all known evidence shows to have been an extermination camp where at least about 150,000 people were killed by gassing or shooting, so the probability that all these people died of "typhus and other disease" at this specific place is infinitesimal, to say the least. Think before writing.
There's no reason to believe that they have done anything more than poke a hole in a trash incineration site.
Actually what all evidence and elementary human logic tell us is that there’s no reason to even remotely suspect that the core drills in question are from holes poked in a trash incineration site and not from holes drilled on the area of former Sobibor extermination camp. Hollow conspiracy theories as entertained by true believers like Hargis are certainly no such reason outside "Revisionist" cloud-cuckoo-land.
Remember, in dealing with Belzec, shyster Kola presented hand drawn sketches of his alleged core samples, no verifiable photographs. Why?
Several reasons are possible, one being that the composition of core samples can be better explained on hand of hand-drawn sketches than on hand of photographs, the other that photographs of human remains taken out of a mass grave might offend the religious notions of certain people about respect for the dead. Simple explanations are usually far more probable than sinister conspiracy theories.
Kola's alleged samples lack the most basic verification principles.
Which are, Mr. Hargis? I strongly doubt that you can show us any rules or standards about what "verification principles" an archaeological report must comply with. I strongly doubt that you even know what you are talking about.
That is the hallmark of fraud.
By what standards and what reasoning other than those of a paranoid conspiracy theorist like yourself, Mr. Hargis?
Anyone can sketch unverifiable 'core samples' to suit an agenda; just as they, among other tricks, have tried repeatedly to alter photos.
Who is "they" here? There was a case of probable photo manipulation by the Simon Wiesenthal Center (which I think is all "Hannover" can show in support of his "repeatedly tried to alter photos" claim), but how would this support the suspicion that a renowned archaeologist unrelated to that entity manipulated his investigation results, even though there’s no indication whatsoever of manipulation and those results are matched by all other known evidence (which the archaeologist, needless to say, could have no influence on)? Not at all, I would say – unless, of course, one baselessly postulates a monstrous conspiracy of evidence manipulation that corrupted every historian, criminal investigator and archaeologist over the last sixty years to help it pursue its sinister purposes. "Hannover" is one of the loonies who piously believe in such conspiracy, as he tells us in his next remark:
All the judeo-supremacist claimed 'research' of the so called death camps reveal the same easily debunked fraudulent tactics.
What "fraudulent tactics", one is entitled to ask? The only indication of fraudulence that "Hannover" has shown is his baseless postulate that an archaeological report must comply with his baseless notions of verifiability lest it be fraudulent. Strictly for the birds.
The information published in Kola’s report about the archaeological investigations at Belzec is only a part of the information collected in the course of these investigations, by the way. On pages 10 and 11 of Kola’s book BEŁŻEC THE NAZI CAMP FOR JEWS IN THE LIGHT OF ARCHAEOLOGICAL SOURCES (which Hargis claims to have read), the following is stated (emphasis added):
Directed by that need The Council of Protection of Memory of Combat and Martyrdom turned in 1997 to the Archaeological and Ethnological Institute of Nicholas Copernicus University in Toruń with a request of conducting probing archaeological works at the territory of the camp in Bełżec. The excavation started in autumn 1997 and was carried on in spring and autumn 1998 and in autumn 1999. The result of the excavation works was a detailed archaeological documentation together with the basic report delivered to The Council of Protection of Memory of Struggle and Martyrdom as to the principal, together with the preliminary reports. The other, non archaeological documentation collected simultaneously were chemical analysis and microscope studies of samples taken during the probing works. They were made to verify the conclusions emerging from archaeological analysis.
How about trying to take a look at what’s in the archives of the "Council of Protection of Memory of Combat and Martyrdom" (Rada Ochrony Pamięci Walk i Męczeństwa - ROPWiM) in Warsaw, Poland, Mr. Hargis?
see Kola and his 'samples' demolished here:
'News: Belzec book demolishes 'death camp' nonsense'
What I see "here" is the mendacious nonsense of "Revisionist" guru Carlo Mattogno that I shredded and showed for what it is in my blog article Carlo Mattogno on Belzec Archaeological Research. Thanks for the opportunity to again call my readers’ attention to this article, Mr. Hargis.
This is what the lying filth of the 'holocaust' Industry tries to pass off as 'proof'.
Let’s make it:
This (i.e. mendacious crap like that of Mr. Mattogno) is what the lying filth from "Revisionist" cloud-cuckoo-land tries to pass off as 'proof' supporting its Jew-hating and Hitler-kissing articles of faith.
That, my dear Hargis, is an accurate statement – and one that, unlike your gibberish, requires no self-projection.
To conclude this update, I note that Hargis' "trash incineration site" - nonsense was the closest he got to providing an alternative explanation as to what, other than the human remains, wood ashes or lime that their appearance suggests, the light-gray, black or white substances on the photographed Sobibor core samples might be.
But that's still more than the other cowardly charlatan, Greg Gerdes, was capable of. :-)
4th update 29.07.2008, 15:00 hours GMT