Monday, October 30, 2006

On the demise of deathcamps.org: how fakes and arrogance killed a great undertaking

The old ARC material is now online at http://death-camps.org. But what happened to the old site? I will tell the story below, and by the end of this posting hopefully you will also understand why I chose to tell it, revealing some rather embarrassing inside information.

(All images are clickable.)

Read more!

I became an associate of ARC/deathcamps.org in late 2005. Some time later I became a full member. Much later Dr. Nick Terry joined the team with my help, and, almost near the end of the whole thing, Roberto Muehlenkamp joined independently. Both Roberto and Nick can corroborate the crucial parts of this posting.

Membership in ARC was neat, but rather uneventful - in-group discussions concerned mostly secondary details on the existing pages. Sometimes new material was supplied and discussed. I can't say I had a "unique" perspective on certain historical interpretations, but there were rare moments during which I defended interpretations which differed from those accepted by "senior" members.

It all lasted until Chris Webb, a British "secretary" of ARC (and also its "treasurer" and proprietor of deathcamps.org domain) sent out the message below (Sep 19, 2006 7:43 PM; emphasis author's):

[...]

Good Day.

i dont do this lightly, Andy has sent me Lambert's statement re the building of the Treblinka gas chambers - new.

Unfortunately, its so small its really difficult to read, but what a find.

Fuchs installed shower-heads in the ceiling

10 chambers

2 Diesel engines obtained by Hackenholt

Bricks obtained from former glass factory at Malkinia

2 horse style barracks for sorting


i am trying to get it bigger - please bear with me.

This is a very good statement, describes too building of 6 watchtowers and a guardhouse.

Like Schluch - totally new to me.

best

Chris
This immediately raised an alarm for me. Lambert talking about diesels for the gas chambers? Lambert constructed these chambers, so if he said so, the engines were diesels. Which, of course, while not destroying anything ("the Holohoax story", as deniers would say) would certainly create some complications. That was not a reason for me to dismiss this alleged statement, but that certainly was a reason to examine it more closely. My suspicions were confirmed by other team members. Mike, a German gentleman who was a deathcamps.org webmaster, wrote (Sep 19, 2006 9:00 PM):
Chris,

you know my opinion re "Andy". In every case you should ask him for the exact source (file number etc) of his contributions. Nothing against you but just something to avoid a possibly big blamage one day.

Mike
To which Chris replied (Sep 19, 2006 9:14 PM):
Mike,

i understand, and you are right.

Its from Dusseldorf trial.

trust me, i am no fool.

He has sent me lots of trial papers, including a 40 page Stangl trial document.

but you are right to be cautious, and i appreciate always you looking after us.

best

chris
"trust me, i am no fool". And still no exact source. The next message from Mike was even more interesting (Sep 19, 2006 9:33 PM):
Chris,

I never said you are a fool but because Andy has sent us at least one faked pic, I intend to be a bit more cautious than usual.

And he never replied on my emails btw.

I don't understand why he keeps somewhere in the background although he is obviously interested in our matters.

I haven't found that document when I visited the Duesseldorf archive but I couldn't see and copy all of their files.

Mike
A faked picture? What the heck was going on? A proven fake, and this "Andy" still wasn't given a boot? More inane apologetics from Chris followed (Sep 19, 2006 10:01 PM):
Mike,

I do understand and accept your caution.

You must try and trust my judgement on the material supplied.

He actually works very hard for us, but wants to remain in the shadows, for whatever reason.

We must accept that, and respect his wishes, he only wants to deal with me, and i am comfortable with that, but he has worked with [name omitted].

If i have any doubts, then i dont share it, its as easy as that. He mostly sends me trial stuff now, so you can see its genuine.

Gentlemen -Please dont bombard me emails over this subject, I have said all i am going to say.

Alles Klahr
[...]
Chris Webb

ARC Secretary
Blah. So, I asked Mike for more info on this "Andy". I received it and remembered that some time earlier I was asked by Mike for my opinion on some pictures and documents of an Aktion Reinhard(t) man Feix, sent by this "Andy" ("Andy Schmidt"). To Mike and me they seemed fishy, though I didn't firmly dismiss them as forgeries back then.

Here they are:





According to the consensus of the people who have seen them (e.g. at Axis History Forum), at least the photos are fishy.

The second picture sent to me by Mike was a real smoking gun. It was purported by "Andy" to be a photo of the Treblinka "Tube". Compare this picture:

with this screenshot from the movie Escape from Sobibor:

But there's more. I remembered that the judgement in Duesseldorf Treblinka trial said:
Darüber welche Masse wirklich zutreffen, hat die Beweisaufnahme ebensowenig eine eindeutige Klärung ergeben wie über die wirkliche Anzahl der neuen Kammern, die von den Angeklagten übereinstimmend und von Anfang an mit 6, von den jüdischen Zeugen jedoch durchweg mit 10 angegeben werden.

I.e., Jewish witnesses testified about 10 chambers, defendants - about 6. And yet, this Lambert statement allegedly said that there were 10 chambers. Moreover, there was another statement, provided by "Andy", which had already been put online (and used by me in an update to my diesel article):
The defendant Münzberger – his personal statement about the upper camp

My main job in the upper camp was to stand at the entrance to the new gas chamber building with a long bull whip, driving the Jews inside as they came through the tube. The building was big, I guess about 16 x 40 metres. In the front section were the chambers and covering the entire width of the back section was the engine room. In the corridor the Jews were driven into the chambers by some Ukrainians. There were five chambers on either side. Each measured about 50 square metres and held about 300 Jews. The first chambers to be filled were chambers one and two behind the curtain. The doors to the first two chambers were shut and the next group of Jews were forced into chambers three and four. When all the chambers were filled with about 3,000 Jews, the heavy wooden doors were fastened with iron bolts. Now I went through the corridor, opened the door to the engine room, and gave a sign to Schmidt or Zänker to start both diesel engines. The Russian T34 tank engines were started by three Ukrainians and a Jew. They needed a lot of diesel. Schmidt brought the diesel from the garage in the lower camp in cans of 20 litres. The operation lasted twenty minutes, and from time to time I looked through the glass windows into the chambers. Then the Ukrainians opened the doors in the corridors and I went to the west side of the building. There I watched the emptying and cleaning of the chambers. At the same time the chambers were ventilated. All of that lasted about forty minutes. Then the big outer doors were closed and secured with wooden beams. Now Rum and his corpse team took over the transportation of bodies to the pits or burning grills, and I went back to the entrance. There Sepp brought the next group of Jews. In the peak time between August and November 1942, sometimes there were eight operations without a break. The following Germans served with me in the upper camp: Heinrich Matthes – chef, Karl Pötzinger – deputy chef, Franz Rum and Willy Großmann – corpse transport, Herbert Floss and Otto Horn – corpse burning, Karl Eiselt and Johannes Eisold – excavator drivers, Karl Ludwig and Alfred Forker – dentists, Erwin Keina and Kurt Arndt – pits, Fritz Schmidt and Hans Zänker – gas chambers, Alfred Löffler and Erwin Lambert – building team, Lothar Boelitz and Josef Hirtreiter – tube and guard, Erich Fuchs and Lorenz Hackenholt – occasional installation work.
And again 10 chambers are mentioned. How could it be, if the judgement said that Nazis testified about 6 gas chambers?

There was one difficulty, though - one of the ARC members, a brilliant Aktion Reinhard(t) researcher with access to lots of ZStL materials provided the following quote from Muenzberger's pre-trial statement (April 1st, 1960; ZStL AR-Z 230/59, Bd. 5, p. 850ff):
At that time the gas chambers only had a small entrance. When I came to Treblinka there were only 3 chambers. The big chambers were being build. Later perhaps there were 8 chambers.
Nevertheless, this statement still contradicted "Andy's" version and Muenzberger wasn't even sure about the exact number of chambers. I also remembered then that many months ago another statement was supplied by Webb, and by all indications it came from the same source. It was an alleged statement of Otto Rum, excerpts from which I also mentioned when writing about the diesel issue:



10 chambers again! The Treblinka trial verdict wasn't very accurate when it claimed that all Nazis claimed 6 gas chambers, so the judges goofed a little bit. But what is the probability that they would write what they did if the three defendants actually explicitly claimed that there were 10 gas chambers? Given that there was no reason for the judges to create a contradiction, and especially considering that the alleged statements have no provenance whatsoever (Webb and his "Andy" never specified the exact sources), the chances are nil and the statements are forgeries.

(I should note here that in the interview with Claude Lanzmann, Franz Suchomel also tentatively claimed that there were 8 gas chambers, but as I have no information about his statements to this effect during the investigation and trial, this information is neither here nor there at this moment.)

Later, when the whole affair basically ended, I also analyzed the alleged statement by Karl Alfred Schluch, supplied by "Andy":



It didn't pass the test either. In Arad's Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka on pp. 70-71 we have the following description by Schluch:
Then Hackenholt switched on the engine which supplied the gas.
Thus 1 engine, not 2. Also Arad says that Schluch served in Belzec since February or March. "Andy's" statement says June. While a numerical contradiction by itself might not be that important, "Andy's" Schluch actually bases his lack of knowledge of the old gas chambers on his month of arrival. Of course, Schluch would be aware of the old gas chambers if he arrived in February or March.

Finally, I have already quoted Carlo Mattogno's citation of Schluch's testimony in my diesel posting:
For the gassings an engine was started up. I cannot give a more detailed description of the engine, because I never saw it. I am not a specialist, but I would say that, judging from the sound, it was a medium-size diesel engine.
Mattogno is a denier, but I haven't seen him quoting any forgeries, and he always gives archival references (in this case - ZStL). So, according to this statement, Schluch also talks about "the engine" and he claims ignorance about the type of the engine! Compare with "Andy's" statement. Mattogno also claims, based on Schluch interrogation (again, giving the exact reference), that Schluch served in Belzec since April 1942 - one more hit against "Andy's" statement. So, this is just another forgery.

After being confronted with some of the above evidence, how did the group react? Well, here's where the "fun" begins. It turned that Mel, one of the "senior" members, was uneasy about "Andy's" material (Sep 23, 2006 9:19 PM):
Mike,

Today and tomorrow are Rosh Hashanah, Jewish New Year, so I shouldn't even be writing this, but for the record, you know my views on Andy and his information. Once bitten, twice shy, as we say.

[...]
In a personal e-mail he was more explicit (Sep 24, 2006 7:30 PM). I'm not shy about quoting this personal message because of what transpired later (see below):
Sergey,

The Treblinka tube was an obvious fake, but there has been other dubious material emanating from this source. I wrote to Mike in January 2005: "As I've already written, Chris believes Andy because he wants everything to be genuine. I am more sceptical - in fact, as I've said on numerous occasions, I don't accept anything as being legitimate without verification from another source. It ain't true just because Chris says it is. We have a reputation to maintain."

I know that Mike shares my opinion. Chris seems to want to keep the identity of this "Andy" to himself for reasons unknown.
[...]
There were some stronger voices of support for me. But the cutest messages arrived from Webb, of course. Like this (Sep 30, 2006 12:47 AM):

Sergey,

I have already answered this.

There is no suspicious material on our site from Andy
or anyone else, to my knowledge.

If anyone can prove there is, we will remove it.

Anything from Andy is from museums, checked by me.

So its really nothing for you or anyone else to worry
about.

End of debate, case closed, as far as i am concerned.

Over and out,

Chris

[...]

Chris Webb

ARC Secretary
Or this (Sep 30, 2006 1:10 AM):
Sergey,

All points have been answered, and i get bored with
people dragging things up, for no good reason.

I am a founder member, fully paid up, and i have no
desire to put anything on the site that damages us.

Mike has the final say on what is uploaded, what more
is there to add.

Chris
Actually, Webb answered no points, except posting this (Sep 30, 2006 3:12 PM):
Gentlemen,

Thanks for all your emails, very interesting, good to
see people expressing their views.

ARC operates with a Board to set policy, and decide on
this kind of thing calmy and rationally.

The Board consists of Mike, Mel and myself.

If i understand group members right they want all of
Andy's stuff removed from the website?

Only email me, if that is incorrect. Thank you.

We can discuss that quite easily, without jumping on
some kind of lynching wagon.

i think we should set our sights a bit higher than
that imo.

Mike, Mel we need to agree a date.

Regards,

Chris Webb

ps. Mike can you give the Board an updateon who has
paid to be a member please.

[...]
After another member posed some good questions about the above message, Webb replied (Oct 1, 2006 10:53 AM):
[...]

Thanks for your kind wishes.

Its at Board level now, so we are spared any further
group discussion.

Hopefully, the Board meeting will take in the next few
days.

[...]
Okaaay, so "the Board" was to consider the forgeries issue. Fine. Now, imagine my, Nick's and Roberto's surprise when we found the following in our mailboxes (Oct 4, 2006 12:20 AM):
ARC - IMPORTANT BOARD ANNOUNCEMENT

To All Members of ARC,

I wish to inform you of some important decisions.

The Board have agreed a number of proposals tonight.
With immediate effect I will assume the policy making decisions of ARC within the Board Structure, of Mel, Mike and myself, taking over from Mike who felt he was unable to continue in this role.

i personally want to thank Mike for doing this, when he wasnt really confortable with it.
He really tried his best, and no-one can ask more.

Secondly, and this may surprise some of you the Board has decided to sever all contacts with members known and unknown of the Axis History Forum with immediate effect.

John will you please draw up a new list excluding

Sergey Romanov

Nick Terry

Roberto Muhlenkamp

If other current ARC members belong to this organisation, please feel free to resign immediately, if you belong to AHF, membership to ARC is barred, for life..

Obviously those that have contributed something, we thank you, and wish you well .

This decision will not be reversed, and if anyone has forwarded money to Mike [surname omitted], this may be returned if we know your address.

Regards,

Chris Webb
ARC
This is too demented to seriously comment upon. But for starters, what does AHF (a respectable forum, by the way) have to do with anything? Nothing. And where is anything about the forgeries?

What followed was not expected by Webb - Mike, the webmaster, has taken down the site and published some messages from the "Board discussion". It seems that Webb simply tried to take over the power, a putsch, if you wish - at least according to Mike's description. Interestingly, even after Mike has declared Webb a former member, Webb tried to use his name (Oct 4, 2006 11:07 AM):
Gentlemen,

[name omitted] - sorry to inform you this is not the case this time.

ARC is run by a Board, the Board agreed by a majority vote to take these actions.

No decisions are taken lightly, but i can assure you it was democratic.

There can be no discussion about it., the long term interests of ARC are at stake, and the Board have taken its decision based on those criteria.

If members do not think they can live and work within this enviornment then of course they are free to leave. .

That choice is theirs , without any hard feelings whatsover.

Regards,

Chris Webb Mel [surname omitted] Mike [surname omitted] - ARC Board Members

ARC
(To which Mike could only reply that "I never got an email in which my name was used as signature for something which I never would have said! That's simply incredible.")

Shreds of "the Board" discussions lead to some interesting insights. Mel wrote (I quote from a quote from another message):
> Mike, Chris,
>
> It will take me a little while to fully digest
> Chris' proposals, but in the interim I would say
> this:
>
> 1) I am not happy with the direction ARC has been
> taking. I agree with Chris that recruiting Sergey,
> Nick, and Roberto was a mistake, and I accept my
> share of the blame for doing so. I do not accuse any
> of them of being deniers - they simply have a
> different agenda from that of ARC (or what I believe
> ARC's should be.) They are intent on "proving"
> facts, particularly to deniers - we are (or should
> be) dedicated to reporting them. Why create a blog
> entitled "Holocaust Controversies"? What is there
> that is controversial, except the absurdities raised
> by deniers?
>
> I know nothing about Sergey, except that he is
> certainly not Russian, although he is clearly a
> fluent Russian speaker. I know even less of Nick and
> Roberto. I think P L-W is different, but hardly
> indispensable. As for Torben, as far as I recall he
> has contributed nothing. Whether the latter two are
> members of AHF I simply do not know. But I do agree
> that we must sever all connection with AHF, known
> and unknown. We agreed long ago when invited to link
> with them that didn't want to create any
> association, directly or indirectly, and I don't
> believe that should change.
>
> 2) In any organisation, somebody must be in charge.
> Even AHF has its "moderators." Mike, you have made
> it clear that you do not want to presently take on
> that role. I therefore think that Chris' suggestion
> that there be a revolving "chairman", with each of
> the three board members taking on the position
> annually, to be a sound one. We cannot continue with
> the situation as it is at present, where people who
> have become members within the last few months are
> laying down conditions for their continued
> membership. We are all sensible people; the board
> makes the rules in the manner Chris has suggested.
> If others do not like the decision, they resign.
> There can be no other way - rule my committee is
> impossible.
>
> 3) I sincerely hope that you will accept Chris'
> proposals in the spirit intended. This is not a
> question of a takeover, simply an attempt to avoid
> anarchy. I understand that none of this is going to
> thrill you, but the objective for which we all
> strive is more important than any perceived personal
> slights.

[...]
Aside from a shameful back-stabbing from Mel (who has actually supported me in some disputes with Chris and never voiced his misgivings to me), note how he raised several bogus issues. Of course, reporting the facts and "proving" the facts do not stand in any contradiction with each other. They're fully complementary. Facts reported correctly (and I mean, just correctly) are a help to us, anti-deniers. Facts reported incorrectly feed deniers. It's that simple. There is no difference in "agenda".

Leaving aside the silliness about me not being Russian, and condescending nonsense about us not being deniers (thaaaaaanks for that, buddy!), Mel actually supported Chris' (presumable) nonsense about AHF. There were, of course, no "ties" with AHF to be severed - anybody can register and post at that forum. It's if like someone was living in New York, being a member of XYZ society, and then the XYZ bosses suddenly decided to "sever all ties with New York" and exclude all New Yorkers just for the fun of it. Just demented.

Webb immediately seized the "opportunity":
mike / mel,

thanks for the support - much appreciated.

i will now write to all members informing them that
all connections with AHF are to severed, and all
members of that organisation are no longer members.

the right result and i look forward to working closely
with you both.

cheers

chris
Then the announcement followed, and Mike's reaction:
Chris, who you are, sending this out without our agreement?

Mike
And then:
mike,
Mel and i agree.
you are outvoted.
You are a member of AHF.- [nickname omitted].
You now have to make a choice, i hope you stay, but that is up to you.
The decisions have been made, the email has been sent.
I sense you backed the wrong horse with Sergey, what can i say other than its really a shame.
Cheers
Chris
And then everything went to hell, as told.

When later I asked Mike whether the forgeries issue has been discussed at all, he answered in the negative. And that is perhaps the saddest thing of all.

It's not necessary to describe the subsequent decay of the group, exacerbated by the fact that Webb was the owner of the deathcamps.org domain. If he wouldn't be, then it would be easy just to kick him out and proceed further. Alas, that wasn't the case.

Currently when you go to deathcamps.org you can see the following announcement:
Notice of Website Closure

It is with regret that we announce the closure of the Official ARC "Aktion Reinhard Camps" website.

The ARC Team has formally disbanded and all access to this site has been terminated.

We would like to take this time to announce the formation of our new research team

Holocaust Education & Archive Research Team

www.holocaustresearchproject.org
I know for certain that Chris Webb is at the heart of this new "team". Except for one another person, I don't know who has joined Webb. But ask yourself a simple question: if Chris Webb didn't admit that his "source" is unreliable; if he didn't even try to address my arguments, poking holes in his materials; if instead he tried to get me and other people (mostly uninvolved in the forgeries fiasco) out of the group; what will be the credibility of this new venture, when it opens up in November? Do you really expect not to see any materials from that "Andy", passed off as the authentic new materials, and bringing endless joy to deniers?




Finally, while all this brouhaha will give a lots of pleasure to "revisionists", don't ever forget - the most probable hypothesis about the origin of these forgeries is that they were created by a denier under a guise of a Holocaust researcher. (S)he has found some naive souls, indeed. But the bottom line is that these forgeries weren't created to "prove" the Holocaust. Quite the opposite.


Later developments: H.E.A.R.T. defenders and their methods.

57 comments:

Michael Metrinick's Bloc said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Calymath said...

I hope you manage to trap your rat Sergey. Someone has clearly gone to a lot of effort, indeed Konrad Kujau could be a suspect (were it not for his death).

Best of luck mate. I'm sure that someone other than Mr. Webb will be aware of this "Andy"'s indentity, and then you can nail the bastard.

Sergey Romanov said...

Just to show you what kind of people will be running "HEART", I will reproduce the comment from Carmelo Lisciotto, Chris Webb's webmaster, who posted it as a "Holoscholar" above, but then deleted it:

"Hey Sergey, do you ever spend time with a cock up your ass?"

Andrew E. Mathis said...

That's charming. He needs an ass-kicking.

a.m.

Sergey Romanov said...

Ah, if you would've only seen the homophobic slur this "anti-Nazi" spurts by e-mail :-)

TrueVoice said...

Hi guys,

It's always sad to see side issues derail what is in effect a very worthy effort.
I can't for the life of me understand what membership in AHF has to do with research, especially if the research is solid. (Besides the fact that AHF has an anti-denial policy, and that most of the posting that Sergey had done was exposing of tired denial canards).
What is childish is that the site is now listed as "closed", rather then forwarded to the archive or some such compromise. Politics aside, ARC is a valuable resource and is linked to by hundreds if not thousands of sites. To have them ending in dead links is conterproductive to both the researchers and the websurfing community.

Sergey Romanov said...

To repeat: the old materials are now available at http://death-camps.org

Calymath said...

Is anything of "Andy's" material hosted on this new address?

Robert James Jones JR. said...

This entire thread sounds like someone who has an axe to grind.

The way I read it is the original poster of the thread was a member of a group called ARC and was subsequently asked to leave.
After which point he appears to go on a bit of a tirade. But never mentions whether or not these alledges fakes were ever published, or were removed if published in error?

What other explanation is there? None I think.

RJJ

Calymath said...

Well, there is the explanation that he was wrongly expelled from the group and that he is now seeking to seek satisfaction...

You can read the article again if you want to see whether any of these fakes were published:

--------------------------------

"Jewish witnesses testified about 10 chambers, defendants - about 6. And yet, this Lambert statement allegedly said that there were 10 chambers. Moreover, there was another statement, provided by "Andy", which had already been put online (and used by me in an update to my diesel article..."

Robert James Jones JR. said...

You say wrongfully expelled? Then that goes to my point of having an axe to grind. So he is getting his satisfaction via a thread that shows he was expelled and has a axe to grind? Very strange.

Also what does Sergei having a cock up his ass have to do with anything? I am not sure of the correlation?

TrueVoice said...

To Sergey:
In my humble opinion, the old domain should either redirect or have links to the archive domain, not simply have a reference to a new project.

TrueVoice said...

More speculation from the CODOH forum from CCS:

Those photos are all frauds. That might have been the very issue that broke deathcamps.org up.

(the photos are posted in the thread here: http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=3772)

Now, I don't know if the photos they are talking about are genuine or not, but it's the same kind of "if one is a liar, then all are liars" line that revisionists often use.

However, it doesn't seem that the issue of fraud even surfaced in the breakup.

Sergey Romanov said...

"The way I read it is the original poster of the thread was a member of a group called ARC and was subsequently asked to leave."

No, you've read it incorrectly. Do you have comprehension problems?

"But never mentions whether or not these alledges fakes were ever published, or were removed if published in error?"

Yes, comprehension problems, apparently. Carmelo, is it you? :-)

Sergey Romanov said...

"Also what does Sergei having a cock up his ass have to do with anything? I am not sure of the correlation?"

Aha, Carmelo indeed. Poor guy :-)

Sergey Romanov said...

Well, TV, CCS has always been full of it, so what do you expect :-)

Sergey Romanov said...

As for the old domain, as I explained, Chris Webb owns it.

As for "Andy's" materials, they appear to have been finally cleared out (Muenzberger's statement and excerpts from Rum's statement).

marsattacks said...

One wonders what the real intention of the old ARC-crew is then. And who is this 'Andy' anyway?

I agree with the AHF posters on the pics of Feix. I have seen a lot of wartime pics and these look just too new, but I can't judge if they and the documents are forged. (but I know of people who can tell if they are forged).

Calymath said...

Just out of curiosity, did "Andy" ever provide any genuine material that probably wouldn't have been found otherwise?

Sergey Romanov said...

"Just out of curiosity, did "Andy" ever provide any genuine material that probably wouldn't have been found otherwise?"

All material is kept by Webb. There are two documents which I didn't publish - the alleged drawings by Schluch - that do contain stamps of the Staatsarchiv Muenchen. I didn't get around to e-mailing the archive, though I will eventually. Of course, forgerers usually mix in some genuine materials (cf. "Gregory Douglas" aka "Peter Stahl"; BTW, I wonder if it could be him...).

Robert James Jones JR. said...

It is painfully clear that the originator of this Blog are VERY UPSET that they were "Kicked Out" of this ARC group.

The average human being doens't go to the length that this Sergee and this Nick Terri have gone to attempt to discredit another individual{s}.

Any psychologist will tell you that when someone puts forth this much effort it is ALWAYS due to some emotional disparity, in this case these two are crying for "Getting the boot".

Of course they will try to rationalize their actions and attempt to debate their way out of it but the facts are the facts.

They should rename this blogging effort to:
How Masked Revisionists Infiltrated and Sabotouged a Holocaust Treasure.

Nick Terry said...

Do you expect to be taken seriously by anyone when you can't even spell our names correctly, let alone a common English word such as 'sabotage'?

Calymath said...

Are you a psychologist by any chance? Do you even know anything about pyschology?

If not, don't bother with the twaddle. Incidentally, at least "Sergee" and "Terri" don't have to resort to using capitals to make their points.

Robert James Jones JR. said...

Dear Sir, forgive my poor use of English it is not my mother tongue.
But to answer your question I don't think anyone on a Revisionist Blog such as this one would take someone like me serious at all.

But the venom you unleash is self evident and one doesn't need a bloodhound to smell the that there is most definitely something fishy about your group of people mr sergee and mr terri.

Hiding behind the guise of fighting holocaust denial when your true intentions is rewrite truth is clearly shown

Trigat said...

LOL! What's your problem Robert? Are you the person who made those incompetent forgeries. Like the photo of the SS man with the whip, which is clearly a digital photo that was aged with photoshop or the blurry photo of the "tube" which clearly was taken from a movie. It doesn't get any more obvious and incompetent than that. Kujau may ass. Kujau was a genius. Our forgerer obviuosly is a bloody amateur. And now that the forgeries were exposed so convincingly and competently by Sergey the incompetent forgerer comes here and whines around about Sergey. Robert, don't be a sore loser. Get yourself a video training course on DVD to learn Photoshop, play around with Photoshop daily for a few months and you will be a competent and successful forgerer in no time. Until then quit whining around here.

P.S.: And yeah, get yourself an SS uniform that fits :-)

Robert James Jones JR. said...

I feel very sorry for you mr terri and mr sergee that you would stoop to such low levels and attack a holocaust treasure for your twisted goals.

May I ask you one question? Do you make some monies from this type of activities? Why do you put so much effort into destruction? Did not the Nazi's do enough of that on their own? Or are you part of that mindset only hiding it so well to trick people?

Trigat said...

why rohburt not ansewring mein question? me knows that rouhbert is the forgerer. why rohbert not admitting it. it being so obvious! rouhbert being a sore loser. not good!!! backt to forgerer school for rohbart. over and out!

Calymath said...

"Kujau was a genius."

Kujau was an incompetent moron who was only as 'successful' as he was because of the sheer gulibility of those he decieved. I mean, he even claimed that Hitler shot himself with a Belgian pistol. Nuff said methinks.

Nick Terry said...

I love the irony of 'Robert James Jones Jr' claiming that English isn't his native language. What a fuckin' moron.

Robert James Jones JR. said...

Certainly I have never come across such a vipers nest of holocaust denial and revision as this blog http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/

I have never seen someone attack a holocaust survivor as this sergey romanov attacked did just recently.

For shame gentlemen for shame

104839sobe104839 said...

Robert James Jones, Jr., this blog is not a denier blog. And if you truly think the opposite, then you must have comprehension problems and need to go back to school. To be honest, I think you're the forgerer who's been thouroughly exposed for the liar he is. And plus, comprehension problems (which you have)is one of the major denier characteristics. (along with the coulda shoulda woulda crap, of course:-)

Trigat said...

Robert, for shame how with Photoshop you tinged that digital photo of the SS man with too much green in an amateurish and botched attempt to make it look older. For shame, I say, for shame. How you took a screen grab from a movie and amateurishly blurred it with Photoshop so that everybody who has even a slight knowlege of Photoshop can see wich fiter you used. For Shame! Nice idea, bad execution. Let me give you a hint. Don't use a digital camera. Use a film camera and genuine black/white film. Don't take screen grabs from movie DVDs which can be identified with a glance, build your own tube and than photograph it with a film camera. Employ the help of some of your Nazi friends to build that tube. As it is your botched attempt just shows what a cheap, lazy and untalented bastard you are. For shame, for shame!

Robert said: "Certainly I have never come across such a vipers nest of holocaust denial and revision as this blog"

Sore loser is whining because he put so much time and effort in an amateurish attempt that was unmasked with just a glance. Hahaha! Sucks to be you, Robert!

Trigat said...

aldo said: "Robert James Jones, Jr., this blog is not a denier blog. And if you truly think the opposite, then you must have comprehension problems and need to go back to school"

Retard Robert knows full well that this is an anti-denier blog. Claiming the opposite is just his way to get at least something out of his forgery effort. His original plan was to quickly slap together some fake photos and some fake documents and feed those to the anti-denier community and wait for them to be cited as evidence by the ant-denier community. He planned to then release photos that show the guy that posed as the SS man to be alive today. Then he would come out and triumphantly proclaim that anti-deniers rely on fake evidence. Only problem is that his attempts at forgery were so amateurish a Sixth-Grader with some computer knowlege could have done better. Because his computer skills are severly lacking his effort cost him considerable effort and time. Since nobody (except that Webb guy) fell for his bullshit that waste of time angers him. He wants to get at least something out of it. So he claims that this is a denier blog for unmasking his forgeries. The only problem is that such a claim makes that retard look even stupider than he already looks.

The only thing I can't figure out is that Webb guy. How can he defend such obvious forgeries? Why would he exclude Sergey, Nick and Roberto from his site if not to silence anti-deniers who are exposing the forgeries that he tries to push. Is it possible that he is a denier in deep cover who infiltrated the anti-denier community?

Robert James Jones JR. said...

It should be fairly obvious as to the reason that Nick Terry Sergey Romanov were kicked out of the a r c webgroup, they were exposed for being deniers, and holding memberships in revisionist organizations against the charter of the arc board. Thus they were shown the door. That then spurred this attacking revisionist block article that here on this revisionist blog http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/

Calymath said...

"It should be fairly obvious..."

Only to someone unable to distinguish between reality and fantasy.

Trigat said...

Robby said: "It should be fairly obvious..."

I said: "So he claims that this is a denier blog for unmasking his forgeries. The only problem is that such a claim makes that retard look even stupider than he already looks."

Thanks for insisting on proving my point time and again :-)

Sergey Romanov said...

"Robert James Jones JR.
said...

It is painfully clear that the originator of this Blog are VERY UPSET that they were "Kicked Out" of this ARC group."

The above is probably written either by Carmelo Lisciotto, by Chris Webb or by the ever-present troll "polardude". (Or even by the forgerer himself).

BTW, notice how (s)he gets the facts wrong. Of course we weren't "kicked out" of the group. An unsuccessful attempt by a former ARC secretary doesn't count as "kicking out".

Notice how this troll doesn't address the substance of the posting.

:-)

TrueVoice said...

One thing that hasn't been said:

While ARC was (and in archive form, is) a valuable resource, what makes any resource good is it's reliability.

Any historian, amateur or professional, has to weigh any evidence and decide whether it is reliable or not. This is crucial to the historical process, as evidence that seems like it might be good and supports the current theory can be forged, doctored or just not of reliable enough lineage to include without a warning.
There is a famous case where a "document dealer" was selling rare documents to the Mormon church in Utah. He was forging them himself, but was making a pretty penny doing so.
Now, an individual might make such a mistake easily, but a group or "board" should be more cautious. Sadly, this is not always the case, but more review should be more stringent.

Last, I'm wondering what "memberships in revisionist organisations" Nick or Sergey have. If AHF is the organisation, they have an explicit anti-denial policy.

Sergey Romanov said...

HEART Webmaster Carmelo Lisciotto has repeatedly called Roberto, Nick and me "nazis" in his e-mails (in return I also called him a Nazi, but that was just to taunt him, which is fair, IMHO ;-), and the last mail to him bounced with "Host unknown (I don't respond to revisionists)".

Make your own conclusions :-)

Oh, and the last word about who kicked out whom. Here's a message Mike sent out to the group shortly after the debacle:

"Dear members,


yesterday and today was and still is filled with rude words and harsh decisions.


Chris writes to you, partially speaking in mysterious phrases which not everyone understands.

All in all he tried to overtake the group which is ashaming but expected since a time, since he made himself the "ARC general manager" (or so). His signatures under mails became more and more formal, according to his steps upward to heaven.

His style in writing and responding to members meanwhile increased to a

(at least for me) unknown level of coldness.


I think that without an assumed support by some members he never would have tried to overtake the group. Therefore we must expect a certain reduction of the group.


Because I can only speak for myself, in contrary to others, I thank Chris for all what he has done for the group, and that he always tried to make the best

of his skills.


Our work will surely continue.


Best regards,

Mike"

As for money, perhaps this "Robert" troll in his spare time should ask Chris what happened to the ARC account (for which Chris was responsible) after the group broke apart? It's not just a minor matter of several hundred dollars, it's a matter of honesty and accountability.

Robert James Jones JR. said...

To be quite honest I am not that well versed in all the dealings of the NO LONGER EXISTANT ARC group.

I especially don't have experience being "kicked out" as do sergee, nick and the other guy. Certainly it would seem by these overly zealous attacks is evidence enough in the lunacy and stupidity of these posters.

It is my understanding that this Neo Nazi Sergey Romanov even went so far as to publicly attack a Holocaust Survivor and belittle and degrade the man. All of this for what end?
What is the purpose of all of this Facist style hatred?


http://Holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com reads like a chapter of DER STURMER.

Is sergee mr Streicher now?

Such a den of iniquity as this shameful lying blog is a scar of all those who choose to respect the victims of the Holocaust.

This Mike person wrote "our work will continue" what work is that?
Since he was kicked out of the ARC group along with you deniers there truly is no "our group" just more idiotic rhetoric from what we all can clearly see are very lonely and shameful people.

Maybe that is why the other poster asked you if you had a "cock in your ass" becuase there is clearly something agitating you.

Sergey Romanov said...

Poor, desperate Carmelo :-)

---

Here's a list of deliberate untruths by "Robert James Jones JR.":

1) "original poster of the thread was a member of a group called ARC and was subsequently asked to leave"

A lie, as anyone who's read the original posting knows.

2) "But never mentions whether or not these alledges fakes were ever published"

A lie, as anyone who's read the original posting knows.

3) "You say wrongfully expelled? Then that goes to my point of having an axe to grind."

A lie, as anyone who's read the original posting knows.

4) "It is painfully clear that the originator of this Blog are VERY UPSET that they were "Kicked Out" of this ARC group."

A lie, as anyone who's read the original posting knows.

5) "Masked Revisionists Infiltrated and Sabotouged a Holocaust Treasure"

A lie, as anyone who's read our blog knows.

6) "Revisionist Blog"

A lie, as anyone who's read our blog knows.

7) "Hiding behind the guise of fighting holocaust denial when your true intentions is rewrite truth is clearly shown"

A lie, as anyone who's read our blog knows.

8) "I feel very sorry for you mr terri and mr sergee that you would stoop to such low levels and attack a holocaust treasure for your twisted goals."

A lie, as anyone who's read the original posting and our blog knows.

9) "Certainly I have never come across such a vipers nest of holocaust denial and revision as this blog"

A lie, as anyone who's read our blog knows.

10) "It should be fairly obvious as to the reason that Nick Terry Sergey Romanov were kicked out of the a r c webgroup"

A lie, as anyone who's read the original posting knows.

11) "they were exposed for being deniers, and holding memberships in revisionist organizations against the charter of the arc board"

Simply a lie.

12) "Thus they were shown the door."

A lie, as anyone who's read the original posting knows.

13) "That then spurred this attacking revisionist block article that here on this revisionist blog http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/"

A lie, as anyone who's read the original posting and our blog knows.

14) "I especially don't have experience being "kicked out" as do sergee, nick and the other guy."

A lie, as anyone who's read the original posting knows.

15) "Certainly it would seem by these overly zealous attacks is evidence enough in the lunacy and stupidity of these posters."

A lie, as anyone who's read the original posting knows.

16) "Neo Nazi Sergey Romanov"

Simply a lie.

17) "http://Holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com reads like a chapter of DER STURMER."

A lie, as anyone who's read our blog knows.

18) "Such a den of iniquity as this shameful lying blog is a scar of all those who choose to respect the victims of the Holocaust."

A lie, as anyone who's read our blog knows.

Wow, 18 lies, and those are just the most obvious ones! Perhaps the freak should get a life? :-)

Trigat said...

Of course those are all lies. But one has to wonder how someboy can be willing to make himself appear as such an utter idiot as Robert does and post such obvious absurdities. I mean a cursory glance over the "Essential postings" link on this blog is enough to realize that this is the direct opposite of a denier blog. There is only one explanation. Robert simply doesn't mind that people consider him to be the village idiot. It's even possible that he enjoys that role. And who do we know who fits that description? Who do we know who didn't mind appearing as an utter idiot when he made up his own laws of perspective and declared the "traditional" laws of perspective "wrong"? Ah, yes the lord of the idiots himself is honoring us with his presence. Thanks for all the laughs, village idiot :-)

Trigat said...

And yeah, it figures that it would be the village idiot who would made such an half-assed attempt at pulling off a forgery scheme (and when I call that attempt half-assed I'm very generous here) :-)

Trigat said...

Still, I can't figure out that Webb guy. Is he just an internet nerd with an overblown ego and a severe case of Napoleon complex (as would seem possible when you consider his failed take-over attempt) or is he a Nazi and denier in deep cover. Any opinions from Sergey, Nick and Roberto?

Sergey Romanov said...

The first. He's not a Nazi or a denier.

BTW, if you feel comfortable about revealing your "real" identity (or alternative identity from some other forums, etc.), please e-mail me ;-) If not, that's OK.

Robert James Jones JR. said...

It is so interesting to watch you 3 idiots attempt to bait me into a debate.

The fact is this: The original post shows Sergee and Nic terri getting "kicked out" of the ARC group. It even details a private letter stating so. That then lead to an argument with the key ARC and this German Mike. The German Mike was then also kicked out. The original ARC group disgusted with the entire affair then decided to dissolve the team, shut down the web site and move on to new endeavors.

Not really difficult to decipher.

However the guys who got kicked out, VERIFIED DENIER and ABUSER of HOLOCAUST SURVIORS namely Sergey Romanov and Nick Terry, then attempt to prolong thier involvement with the former ARC people by creating this blog thread, to which they are they only ones reading and responding, other than the poster who said that Sergee has a "cock in his ass" and of course me. So why are you still trying to be with the ARC guys? They clearly don't want you or to be associated with your HOLOCUST DENIAL BLOG http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/

So you three guys keep writing each other to perpetuate a thread that no one but you guys seems to be reading... A bit strange.

How many more Jews and Holocaust survivors will you attack and abuse Mr. Sergey Romanov?

How much more suffering will you and Nick Terry of http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/ cause to the victims of the holocaust with your revisionist lies???

The three of you should combine your IQ's and come up as a single idiot and stead of three. It would be more economical, and the cock would then be in all your asses :)

Sergey Romanov said...

Lis'n, slaveboy from Chicago, how about a deal:

1) You get lost.

2) I don't reveal our private e-mail exchanges and also the information about your rather unconventional (bi)sexual activities, which would be irrelevant otherwise, but which did become relevant when you began spouting all this "gay", "faggots", "cock up your ass" BS, and which is certainly gonna hurt that "macho" image of yours?

Think about it carefully.

Trigat said...

How about another deal, Sergey? We just keep the village idiot for the (involuntary) comic relief and you reveal all the juicy details about him. How is that for a deal?

P.S.: Im also known as aoris.

Sergey Romanov said...

Aoris, glad to see you here :-)

As for the deal - I'll give the guy a chance.

Robert James Jones JR. said...

mr sergee I've recieved more reports of other Holocaust Survivors you have abused and degraded. Is this a habit with you?

Sergey Romanov the abuser of innocent Holocaust victims.

Truly a disgusting man you are. Does Nick Terry also abuse holocaust victims and survivors?

Quite a disgusting group and digusting blog this http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/ is....

Again you have made a post about having a "cock in your ass" that is how many post that YOU HAVE MADE that have that line reprinted in it.
Is that you subtle way of being an exhibitionist?

Mr sergeee Mr sergee....

Trigat said...

Sergey, I think you are wrong. The village idiot can't be that Webb guy. There is only one person in the whole internet that I know of that has acted so deeply retarded before. Our village idiot must be polardude.

Sergey Romanov said...

I never said that's Webb. But that's not pd either.

Anyway, let me thank "Robert James Jones JR." for providing so much material about HEART defenders' methods. But he is no longer welcome here.

Now we have a second banned person on this blog. :-)

Trigat said...

I thought you were hinting at Webb when you mentioned that Chicago guy. Anyway, I could have sworn that is polardude. That style of deep dementia and idiocy having run out of control a long time ago is unmistakeble and relly unique (or so I thought). I also thought the writing style (if you can call it that) is the same. I'll never forget when he tried to invent his own laws of perspective and declared the real laws of perspective wrong because they were in the way of his delusions. That was really the most iditotic thing I've ever seen and only a little more idiotic than claiming that this is a denier blog. Anyway, I guess it doesn't matter anymore. The village idiot has passed on :-)

Sergey Romanov said...

Enjoy :-)

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/11/heart-defenders-and-their-methods.html

Trigat said...

Carmelo needs a spanking! Naughty boy! :-)

EricFowler said...

His original plan was to quickly slap together some fake photos and some fake documents and feed those to the anti-denier community and wait for them to be cited as evidence by the ant-denier community. He planned to then release photos that show the guy that posed as the SS man to be alive today. Then he would come out and triumphantly proclaim that anti-deniers rely on fake evidence.

I don't think so. In a backhanded way, this episode tends to convince me of your veracity, if not intelligence. I think "Chris Webb" and his imaginary friend are professionals, and have been playing fakes into your hands to use as ammunition against the deniers. The fakes didn't stand up, thanks in no small part to your unwillingness to be used in this way. So "Chris Webb" is now sulking off and looking for another market for his goods.

Eric

Anonymous said...

Reading all this shit, I could puke. People are taking a well-known website like deathcamps.org hostage for their own reputation. Shame on them! All Jews worldwide should be informed that Lizziotto and Webb (spider?) are using the Holocaust for their own career. If these persons could tell us something about their efforts to delete the follow-up site death-camps.org from Google and Wikipedia!

Geeny