Wednesday, November 28, 2007

CODOH Lies and Ignorance: Sobibor

The willingness of deniers to lie about the Reinhardt camps has been demonstrated here. We have also exposed specific denier idiocies relating to Belzec here and to Sobibor here . This current blog discusses how Jonnie 'Hannover' Hargis repeated several of these lies and idiocies in parrot-like fashion in CODOH threads on Sobibor (shown here and here), and added his own special CODOH spin of dishonesty and antisemitism to the claims.

Read more!

Firstly, Hargis made a false comparison between Sobibor and labour camps:
People died from a variety of causes during the war; in the work camps disease was the prime cause. No indication of murder here, just graves that contained some cremated bodies (important with contagious diseases).
The dishonesty of this claim can be demonstrated by the fact that, later in the thread, Hargis quoted this passage from Mark Weber:
In a letter dated July 15, 1943, the head of the SS concentration camp system, Oswald Pohl, explained to Himmler that a center for dismantling captured Soviet ammunition could be set up at Sobibor without having to transform it into a concentration camp. Sobibor would remain a transit camp with a special section for dismantling ammunition.
Hargis therefore set up a contradiction that he could not explain: if Sobibor remained a transit camp for its full period of existence, and only had a labour component for a maximum of three months between Pohl's letter of July 1943 and the camp's liquidation in October 1943, how did a mass grave full of hundreds of thousands of typhus-infested Jews manage to appear in such a short period?

Secondly, Hargis claimed that the bullets found by Kola in his 2001 investigation at Sobibor probably came from the ammunition camp. However this is simply ignorance. Arad showed here that the ammunition conversion camp was a separate entity - 'Camp 4' - in the northern part of the Sobibor site. The cartridges found by Kola were in the 'hospital' barracks, nowhere near the ammunition camp.

Thirdly, Hargis chose to read the word 'hospital' literally, despite the fact that it is clear from the literature that the 'hospital' was a euphemism for the place where the sick and disabled arrivals were taken to be shot if they were too infirm to walk to the gas chambers. The discovery of cartridges at this specific location is powerful corroboration of the eyewitness testimony given at the Sobibor trial.

Fourthly, Hargis, incredibly, asked:
gas chambers?
Where's the evidence for this?
This was an outright lie. Hargis must have known that Fuchs gave detailed descriptions to the Sobibor trial of gassing using a petrol engine.

Fifthly, Hargis showed his antisemitic colours:
Jews were predominant victims? So typical.
Finally, Hargis repeated the lie originally told by Graf, which we noted in this blog:
According to alleged eyewitness, Alexander Pechersky, gassings at Sobibor took place via a black heavy substance which exited in spirals from holes in the roof. Then the floor of the gas chamber opened up, and the bodies fell directly into wagons placed in the basement.
Pechersky was not an eyewitness. His account was hearsay. The fact that Hargis had to repeat this lie from another denier demonstrates just what a sad antisemite he really is.

7 comments:

Butch said...

JH,

Referencing your Hargis post:

Hargis therefore set up a contradiction that he could not explain: if Sobibor remained a transit camp for its full period of existence, and only had a labour component for a maximum of three months between Pohl's letter of July 1943 and the camp's liquidation in October 1943, how did a mass grave full of hundreds of thousands of typhus-infested Jews manage to appear in such a short period?

You seem to be parsing this rather finely to make your non-point so, in the same theme, can you explain to me how do you know that this mass grave contained Jews?

The human nose is largely made of cartlidge -- which would decay faster than bone -- so I would assume that that was not the method used to identify them as Jews.

Also, is it not normal to bury dead bodies?

Thank you in advance.

Butch

Jonathan Harrison said...

Nazi transport records show large numbers of Jews being sent to Sobibor but very few of them being transported from the camp. Perpetrators testified and admitted to gassing operations there, most notably at the Sobibor trial in West Germany. They also testified that the bodies were cremated.

Arad's "Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka. The Operation Reinhard Death Camps" is the standard secondary text if you're genuinely interested in reading about these details.

Butch said...

JH,

According to Arad [Yitzhak Arad, The Operation Reinhard Death Camps, p. 379], 250,000 people (I’m guessing he means Jews and otherwise) perished at Sobibor, presumably by gassing. Martin Gilbert comes to this same conclusion. Hilberg estimates 250,000.

But in your essay, you state:

Hargis therefore set up a contradiction that he could not explain: if Sobibor remained a transit camp for its full period of existence, and only had a labour component for a maximum of three months between Pohl's letter of July 1943 and the camp's liquidation in October 1943, how did a mass grave full of hundreds of thousands of typhus-infested Jews manage to appear in such a short period?

Should I assume that these “Typhus-infested Jews” died of gassing or of typhus?

Hundreds of thousands of Typhus-infested Jews found in mass graves at Sobibor and 200,000 deaths as estimated by Arad seems to add up to zero. Plus you state in your reply that “very few” (but some) were transported from the camp.

Using worst case scenario (i.e. Hilberg’s estimate of 250,000) and defining “very few” as 50,000, could we assume that no gassing took place and that Typhus was the culprit?

Possibly you could provide the primary source as opposed to Arad which you refer to as a secondary source.

Butch

Jonathan Harrison said...

Butch, you misread the blog. I was referring to CODOH's claim that the people in the grave could have died of typhus. I was not endorsing that claim. My point was that deniers usually claim that Sobibor was a transit camp, not a labour camp, so typhus does even not fit their own model, let alone the evidence summarised in Arad's book.

dane lee said...

While I disagree with the body count of 250,000 (I find only evidence of 15-20,000), actually, mass graves of an inordinate volume would be rather fitting if Sobibor were a transit camp, because of the likelihood of volume that would pass through the camp, thus creating both a moderate increase in workforce and an excessive number of unrelated or out-of-place corpses produced from the many sources that could be found to exist. Such as incoming infirmed and dead, Typhus, those who resisted and were executed, attempted escapees, those who may have been euthanized as "mental deficient" and diseased or contagious, accidents, crimes, suicides, and local deaths of natural and common causes, etcetera.

I wish nobody ill, and I am generally a skeptic. However, it appears somewhat obvious that this site WANTS there to be gas chambers and unspeakable horrors (aren't there enough to go around, and perpetrated by Jews just as readily as any other peoples?). As a survivor of countless terrors, I certainly find it rather quizzical when those with no clearly tortured past seek to adorn the nature of one. Strange...nobody wants a tortured past...especially REAL victims. We just muster courage, in our simple yet logical refusal to be victimized -- you cannot do me wrong because I know the truth, and I refuse to be a "victim."

I wish you the best...a vengeful life is gruesomely stagnant.

dane lee said...

***re-post. not sure if posted***

While I disagree with the body count of 250,000 (I find only evidence of 15-20,000), actually, mass graves of an inordinate volume would be rather fitting if Sobibor were a transit camp, because of the likelihood of volume that would pass through the camp, thus creating both a moderate increase in workforce and an excessive number of unrelated or out-of-place corpses produced from the many sources that could be found to exist. Such as incoming infirmed and dead, Typhus, those who resisted and were executed, attempted escapees, those who may have been euthanized as "mental deficient" and diseased or contagious, accidents, crimes, suicides, and local deaths of natural and common causes, etcetera.

I wish nobody ill, and I am generally a skeptic. However, it appears somewhat obvious that this site WANTS there to be gas chambers and unspeakable horrors (aren't there enough to go around, and perpetrated by Jews just as readily as any other peoples?). As a survivor of countless terrors, I certainly find it rather quizzical when those with no clearly tortured past seek to adorn the nature of one. Strange...nobody wants a tortured past...especially REAL victims. We just muster courage, in our simple yet logical refusal to be victimized -- you cannot do me wrong because I know the truth, and I refuse to be a "victim."

I wish you the best...a vengeful life is gruesomely stagnant.

dane lee said...

Would also like to ask why Jewish people call others anti-Semitists whom merely do not agree with Judaism or Orthodoxy and Zionism, or seek to excoriate and defile the life and likeness of anyone who simply does not appreciate what Jewish people stand for, and for the fact that Judaism exists as a doctrine and thus can be classified as any number of cult behaviors that create inordinately large and cumbersome groups and group mentalities that are generally more destructive to themselves than the individuals they seek to devalue.

Furthermore, it is mere human nature that I find the Oral Torah to be extremely offensive, to the degree of horrific, and on an overwhelming number of counts. And I would cite such mechanisms as one clear detractor from nearly any allegation you or your site can muster.

Again, the very best to you and yours, I feel much compassion for your plight. However, I find that refusing to be a victim, in any senses, is marvelously liberating.