Wednesday, August 23, 2006

Whining and Kvetching from the Ugly Voice Producer …

... is what episode 18 [YouTube version] of his video filth largely consists of.

Read more!

In my previous article about episodes 11 and 12 of the Ugly Voice Productions video, I had pointed out, among other things, that the archaeological investigation led by Prof. Andrzej Kola on the area of Belzec between 1997 and 1999, during which 33 mass graves with a total volume of ca. 21,000 cubic meters were identified, was not even mentioned in the video’s episode 12. Thereupon an anonymous “Revisionist” smart-ass, who obviously had not read my statement carefully enough, tried to correct me by stating that Kola’s study is mentioned in «chapter 18 and 19 of the movie». I replied that I had made no pretension in my article to have looked at the whole movie, and that its episodes 18 and 19, if mentioning Kola’s study, might be the subject of a future article.

So now I follow up Sergey’s brilliant article An Ugly Analysis with another contribution to our growing collection of commentaries on the Ugly Voice video clips.

Episode 18 starts with the anonymous Mr. Ugly Voice giving his viewers some wisdom about how soil tends to be structured in different geological sediment layers, which of course would be upset by the digging of mass graves, which is why he thinks it would be “self evident” to take soil samples from areas outside and inside the former Treblinka extermination camp and compare the sediment layer structure of both in order to determine if there was ever a disturbance of the original geological sediment layer structure of the latter. He doesn’t explain, however, why on earth someone should bother to do such “experiment” after it was already established by excavations (which are incidentally mentioned later on in this clip and will be addressed in more detail in the present article) that there had been digging and disposal of human remains on a large scale in the Treblinka area, and despite the fact that (as I haven’t seen our friend mention anywhere in his film so far) hardly any of the hundreds of thousands of documented deportees to what all known evidence shows to have been a killing center is known to have ever left the place alive.

Our friend also doesn’t reveal (at least in this episode) on what basis he established the “rough” size and location of the “alleged killing and burial area of the camp”, which he outlines in this context on a photo of Treblinka in the 1960s. Presumably his underlying calculations are based on un-scaled maps that were drawn by eyewitnesses or by others on the basis of eyewitness testimonies – a fallacious approach on his part, already addressed in my previous article about episodes 11 and 12 of the Ugly Voice Productions video.

After this brilliant introduction, viewers are treated to impressive figures about what the soil of the Treblinka mass graves should contain:

• Ashes of 225 million pounds of wood, assuming 750,000 bodies and a “low estimate” of 300 pounds of wood per person.

• Millions of teeth.

As to the ashes, our friend’s calculation of the corresponding wood amount, i.e. 300 pounds or ca. 136 kg per person, might be fairly reasonable, according to my calculations and the sources mentioned in section 4.2 of my article Carlo Mattogno on Belzec Archaeological Research, if the persons killed at Treblinka had weighed about 70 kg on average, and if they had all been incinerated right after having been killed, and not mostly after weeks or months of lying in mass graves. None of this was the case, of course. Even Mattogno assumes an average weight of 46 kg for Treblinka corpses (“average assumed weight, including allowance for presumed children” – as women and children were usually unable to work and thus the first to be exterminated at places like Treblinka, the “allowance” should be slapped around Mr. Mattogno’s ears), and if 700,000 out of our Ugly Voice friend’s 750,000 corpses eventually incinerated at Treblinka had previously lain in mass graves and were equally distributed among corpses at the stage of putrefaction and corpses at the advanced stages of decomposition, the average weight of previously buried bodies to be burned, assuming the average body weight “allowed” by Mattogno is adequate for Treblinka and otherwise applying my calculations for Belzec to this case, would have been the following:

Corpses at the stage of putrefaction: 350,000 x 46 kg = 16,100,000 kg.

Corpses at the stage of black putrefaction or butyric fermentation: 350,000 x 18 kg (40 % of 46 kg, the other 60 % corresponding to the fluids that would have left the body at these stages) = 6,440,000 kg.

Total weight of 700,000 corpses: 16,100,000 + 6,440,000 = 22,540,000 kg.

Average weight per corpse: 22,540,000 ÷ 700,000 = 32 kg.

The maximum amount of wood required to burn 32 kg of corpse under the conditions existing at Treblinka and the other Aktion Reinhard(t) camps (where the dryness of a large part if not most of the corpses and/or flammable substances forming during the decomposition process presumably reduced the firewood requirements far below the amounts I calculated, as pointed out in section 4.2 of my article Carlo Mattogno on Belzec Archaeological Research) would have been 64 kg, according to my calculations for Belzec. If another 50,000 corpses were burned at Treblinka right after the killing, without having been previously buried in mass graves (as was done in the later stages of the camp’s operation), and if each of these required 46 x 2 = 92 kg of firewood for burning, the maximum total amount of wood required for burning 750,000 corpses at Treblinka would have been the following:

Corpses burned after being taken out of the mass graves: 700,000 x 64 = 45,080,000 kg
Corpses burned directly after killing: 50,000 x 92 = 4,600,000 kg
Total weight of required firewood: 49,680,000 kg

49,680,000 kg equal ca. 109,525,652 pounds, which means that our Ugly Voice friend’s “low estimate” of 225,000,000 pounds of wood is exaggerated by a factor of about 2 at least.

49,680,000 kg or 49,680 tons of wood, according to Mr. Mattogno (see section 4.5 of my article Carlo Mattogno on Belzec Archaeological Research), would leave behind 49,680 x 0.08 = 3,974 tons of ash with a volume of 3,974 ÷ 0.34 = 11,689 cubic meters. The incinerated corpses themselves, weighing a total of 16,100,000 + 6,440,000 + 2,300,000 = 24,840,000 kg or 24,840 tons, would according to Mattogno’s calculation factors leave behind 24,840 x 0.05 = 1,242 tons of ashes with a volume of 1,242 ÷ 0.5 = 2,484 cubic meters. The total incineration remains returned to the Treblinka mass graves would thus (at most, considering the conditions mentioned above) have had a volume of 11,689 + 2,484 = 14,173 cubic meters.

Now, the volume of the mass graves, according to the calculations in my article Polish investigations of the Treblinka killing site were a complete failure ..., was more than 90,000 cubic meters. This means that the cremation remains that one can at most expect to find in these graves would be amongst amounts of soil about six times larger, wildly mixed with this soil due to the robbery digs that went on for over a decade after the end of the war, and thus rather hard to separate from this soil so as to allow for their quantification. If we look at the human ashes alone, the relative amount thereof in the soil is even much less: 2,484 out of ca. 90,000 cubic meters, or about 3% of the total volume of the mass graves!

The teeth that Mr. Ugly Voice and Mr. Neumaier make so much of would hardly change this picture. First of all, it is doubtful whether all that many teeth would have survived the incineration and subsequent crushing and grinding procedure, which Neumaier refers to but does not describe in detail, perhaps for good reason. The procedure is described as follows on pages 189 and following of the study Nationalsozialistische Massentötungen durch Giftgas, edited by Eugen Kogon, Hermann Langbein, Adalbert Rückerl et al:

Wenn das Feuer erlosch, blieben ganze Skelette oder vereinzelte Knochen auf dem Rost zurück. Darunter hatten sich Berge von Asche gesammelt. Ein anderes Häftlingskommando, »die Aschenkolonne«, musste sie zusammenkehren und die Überreste der Knochen auf dünne Bleche legen. Mittels runder Holzpflöcke wurden die Knochen kleingestampft und danach durch ein engmaschiges Metallsieb geschüttelt; was darin hängenblieb, wurde noch einmal zerkleinert. Unverbrannte Knochen, die schwer zu zersplittern waren, wurden ein zweites Mal ins Feuer geworfen.

My translation:

When the fire went out, whole skeletons or single bones remained on the grid. Underneath mountains of ash had gathered. Another inmate detachment, the »ash column«, had to collect them and place the remains of the bones onto thin metal sheets. By means of round wooden logs the bones were ground and then run through a tightly meshed metal sieve; what was caught therein was ground once more. Unburned bones that were hard to break up were thrown into the fire a second time.

But even in the improbable case that Neumaier’s 20 teeth per corpse survived this procedure as well as the postwar robbery digs involving the use of explosives (see my article Polish investigations of the Treblinka killing site were a complete failure …) and that 750,000 corpses thus left 15 million teeth still buried together with the human and wooden ashes in the Treblinka mass graves, it would not exactly be a piece of cake to separate 167 teeth per cubic meter (assuming an even distribution of the teeth throughout the soil, which would not necessarily have occurred - there might just as well have been larger concentrations of teeth in certain parts of the filled-in soil and smaller concentrations or no teeth at all in others) from the masses of soil and ashes surrounding them in order to allow for a quantification of the total amount of teeth in the area and thence drawing conclusions about the number of people buried there. In fact, any quantification of human remains in the area of Treblinka would require digging up all the soil from the mass graves once they had been exactly located, i.e. about 90,000 cubic meters of soil according to my calculations, and then finding a method by which to separate the human remains from the wood ash and the sandy ground they are mixed with in such a way as to allow for a more or less reliable quantification of the bodies that these remains belong to. This would be possible only in regard to the teeth, assuming the improbable case that they survived in sufficient numbers, and the related procedure would presumably require no less time and resources than the search for emeralds in the dug-up earth of a respective mining area.

Why, now, would any forensic investigators or historical researchers of events at Treblinka undertake such a presumably Herculean and not necessarily fruitful effort in order to more or less establish the number of people murdered at Treblinka, when there is a far more accurate method for establishing this number? This method consists in assessing the number of people who were transported to Treblinka – and of whom all except a few dozen escapees never left the place alive – on the basis of pertinent eyewitness accounts and documentary evidence. The Polish Central Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland seems to have been the first to recognize that this method, and not combing through tens of thousands of cubic meters of soil for human ashes, bone fragments or teeth, was the most accurate means to establish the order of magnitude of the mass murder committed at Treblinka. The following quote is from the English translation of the report on Treblinka by the Central Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland; emphases by bolding are mine:

An accurate calculation of the number of victims is at present impossible. It will be remembered that Treblinka ceased its activities in the autumn of 1943, so that the German authorities had enough time to wipe out the traces of their crimes. The most reliable method of counting the number of victims is by counting the number of train-loads. The figures based on the dimensions of the gas chambers give no guarantee whatever of accuracy, as we do not know, firstly, how often the gas-chambers were used, and, secondly, the number of people who, on an average, were gassed at any one time. In establishing the number of train-loads, the commission based its findings on the evidence given by the witnesses, laying special stress on the statements of the railway workers and on the railway records from Treblinka station, which are in the possession of the commission of enquiry.
The most active period seems to have been from August to the middle of December, 1942. During that time we may assume one daily train-load as unquestionable according to the evidence of the railway-workers. Indeed four witnesses put the figure at two per day. After that, from the middle of January to the middle of May, 1943, the average was probably one a week. Some of the witnesses put the figure at three.
The average number of wagons in a transport was 50 through sometimes, as the railway records showed, it was as many as 58.
The total number of wagon-loads of victimls from August 1, 1942, to May 15, 1943, may be taken, with some certainty, to have been 7,550.
In the later period, from the railway records; the list of the wagons for August 17, 1943; a telegram of August 18, 1943; and a document entitled Fahrplanordnung Nr. 290 sent from Treblinka station by the Reichsbahndirektion Königsberg, the number of train-loads could be established quite accurately.
In the above-mentioned Fahrplanordnung we read among ather things: Zur Abbeförderung von Aussledlern verkehrenp.104
folgende Sonderzüge von Bialystok nach Malkinia. Ziel Treblinka, from which it may be concluded that after the revolt the following train-loads, were brought in: on Aug. 27, 1943, 41 wagons; on Aug. 19, 35 wagons; on Aug. 21, two transports of 38 wagons each; on Aug. 22, two transports of 39 wagons each; and on Aug. 23, one transport of 38 wagons; i. e. a total of 266 wagons.
As an average number of persons per wagon we may take 100 (the majority of witnesses deposed that it was more than 150).
According to this calculation the number of victims murdered at Treblinka amounts to at least 731,600. Taking into consideration the great caution with which the investigators assessed the number of train-loads and the average number of persons per wagon, this must be accepted as probable, that in actual fact the number of victims was even larger1. (1It should be pointed out that from pertinent documents such as telegrams, time-tables and way-bills it appears absolutely certain that more than two thousand wagon-loads of Jews were brought to Treblinka; yet these documents constituted but a small part of all the railway documentary evidence, the greater part of which is lost.)

The adequacy of this approach, as well as the accuracy or this early calculation, which did not yet benefit from documentary evidence discovered since, is shown by the fact that, according to the report sent by SS-Sturmbannführer Höfle in Lublin on 11 January 1943 to Obersturmbannführer Heim in Krakow (which, incidentally, I wouldn’t be surprised not to find mentioned anywhere in the Ugly Voice Productions video), 713,555 Jews had been delivered at Treblinka by 31.12.1942. One wonders what erroneous orders of magnitude the Poles would have come up with if, instead of taking their reasonable quantification approach, they had endeavored to detach from an enormous amount of soil the human remains contained therein in a way that would allow for quantifying the victims. Such quantification can be difficult if not impossible even where no incineration of the bodies has occurred, like in the case of the 884 bone fragments found under a cliff overhang in Croatian Krapina by geologist Dagutin Gorjanovic Kramberger in 1899, regarding which – according to this article – no one can tell to this day if they belong to 20 or to 80 dead bodies.

To be sure, Mr. Ugly Voice doesn’t speak of quantification when he bemoans the supposed lack of soil examinations.

But why, if not in order to quantify the victims, should anyone have looked into the soil underneath the Treblinka site at all?

In order to establish whether there had really been mass graves at a place that everyone involved with it described as a killing site and where hundreds of thousands of people had disappeared from the face of the earth? That’s what I would call a waste of time.

In order to make sure that the physical traces of the killing are compatible with the order of magnitude thereof that becomes apparent from the documentary, eyewitness and demographic evidence, however unreasonable it is to expect incompatibility? Not a must either, but there’s also nothing wrong with cross-checking known sources of evidence against as many other sources of evidence as possible, and for this purpose looking underneath the area where hundreds of thousands of murdered people were disposed of is certainly an endeavor to be welcomed.

Showing some elementary logic for once, Mr. Ugly Voice places excavations above soil sample examinations as a means to establish the killing site’s underground, and even mentions that such excavations have been carried out at the AR camp sites, albeit by “the Soviets and Soviet-installed governments”, as if that significantly reduced their value or even made them worthless. What these excavations turned up he apparently prefers not to mention.

Fortunately for who doesn’t feel like swallowing Mr. Ugly Voice’s chatter, the often useful Mr. Mattogno provided translations of the pertinent investigation reports on Treblinka and Belzec in his respective screeds about these camps. The following passages relating to the report on Treblinka were already quoted in my article Polish investigations of the Treblinka killing site were a complete failure … (bolding emphases in the following quote are mine):

For the purpose of performing an official investigation of the scene of the crime, Judge Lukaszkiewicz had gone to Treblinka. As he later explained, he acted206 "[…] at the request of the State Prosecutor of the District Court in Siedlce of September 24, 1945, further induced by a letter of September 18, 1945, of the Main Commission for the Investigation of the German Murders in Poland."

After bidding farewell to the visitors, Lukaszkiewicz set to work with a group of workers. Between November 9 and 13, he undertook a thorough examination of the grounds as well as a series of excavations. Afterwards he composed an official protocol, which we reproduce in full in view of its significance:207

"Protocol of the tasks performed on the grounds of the death camp Treblinka, which forms the object of the judicial examination.

From November 9 to 13, 1945, the examining magistrate of Siedlce, Z. Łukaszkiewicz, together with the State Attorney for the District Court of Siedlce, J. Maciejewski, performed the following tasks on the camp grounds:

November 9, 1945
Excavations were begun on the grounds using the services of 20 workers who had been mustered by the village administration for carrying out roadwork. The excavations began at the location described by the witness Rajzman on November 6, where the so-called ‘camp hospital’ had stood and where, according to the witness, a mass grave is supposed to exist.
Since a bomb crater 4 to 5-meter deep is present at the said location – two bombs still lie at a slight distance from this crater – the digging was begun in this crater. In the course of this work numerous Polish, as well as Russian, German, Austrian, and Czech coins as well as broken pieces of various kinds of containers were discovered. At the end of the work, at approximately 3 pm, at a depth of 6 meters, we encountered a layer which had not been reached previously. There were no human remains found.

November 10, 1945
The work was continued, with 36 workers assigned who had been commandeered for roadwork. At a depth of 6 meters begins a layer which has never before been uncovered by anyone. It consists partly of all sorts of kitchen utensils and different kinds of household objects; there are also pieces of clothing. At a depth of 7 meters, we reached the floor of the pit – a layer of yellow sand which is not mixed with gravel. By means of expansion of the excavation we succeeded in determining the shape of the pit. It has sloping walls, and the bottom measures about 1.5 meters [sic!]. The pit was presumably excavated with an excavator. During the course of the excavations, numerous more or less badly damaged Polish documents were discovered, further a badly damaged personal identity card of a German Jew, as well as several more coins: Polish, German, Russian, Belgian, and even American. After we had made certain that this pit, filled with broken pieces of the containers mentioned, ran in a north-south direction on the grounds of the camp area – 2 meters more [in a northerly direction] had been excavated – the workers started work at this location.

November 11, 1945
A series of test excavations were performed at the place where the [gas] chambers had to have been located, in order to find their foundation walls if possible. Pits 10 - 15 meters in length and 1.5 meters deep were dug. Undisturbed layers of earth were uncovered by this.
The largest of the craters produced by explosions (numerous fragments attest to the fact that these explosions were set off by bombs), which is at maximum 6 meters deep and has a diameter of about 25 meters – its walls give recognizable evidence of the presence of a large quantity of ashes as well as human remains – was further excavated in order to discover the depth of the pit in this part of the camp. Numerous human remains were found by these excavations, partially still in a state of decomposition.[208] The soil consists of ashes interspersed with sand, is of a dark gray color and granulous in form. During the excavations, the soil gave off an intense odor of burning and decay. At a depth of 7.5 meters the bottom was reached, which consisted of layers of unmixed sand. At this point the digging was stopped here.

November 13, 1945
With the assistance of 30 workers employed for roadwork, the opening of a pit was begun – a site where refuse was deposited in the northeastern section of the camp. In this location, as the workers from the nearby hamlets explained, a very large number of documents were found up till now. Work was begun at this location where the people [of that area] had dug a three-meter-deep pit in a search for gold. During the course of the digging, broken pieces of all sorts of kitchen containers as well as a large number of rags were continually found. Aside from the coins discovered so far, Greek, Slovakian, and French ones were found, as well as documents in Hebrew and Polish and remnants of a Soviet passport. At a depth of 5 meters the work was stopped due to the steadily worsening weather conditions.

The Examining Judge The State Attorney
Lukaszkiewicz Maciejewski

The Examining Judge of Siedlce, on November 13, 1945, rules in consideration of the fact that with great probability no mass graves are any longer to be found on the grounds of the former camp today, as is to be concluded from the witness testimonies examined so far and from the results of the works carried out at the site, and in consideration of the oncoming autumn, the present rainfall and the necessity of a rapid conclusion of the judicial preliminary investigations, in view of all these facts to stop the work on the territory of the former death camp Treblinka.

The Examining Judge

On December 29, 1945, after the conclusion of his preliminary investigations, Lukaszkiewicz issued a protocol with 14 paragraphs, which – as already mentioned – was presented by the Soviets at the Nuremberg Trial as Document USSR-344. In the third paragraph, which bears the title "Current condition of the camp terrain", it says the following:209

"With the assistance of an expert land surveyor and witnesses, I made an exact inspection of the terrain. According to the measurements, the area of the camp is approximately 13.45 hectares and had the shape of an irregular quadrilateral. No remnants of facilities of the former death camp exist any longer. The only things that remain of the structures are: a ditch with remains of burned wooden poles protruding up, which lead into the cellar, wall bricks from the foundations of the camp’s domestic economics building and the site of the well. Here and there one finds traces of the burned-out wooden poles of the fence and remains of barbed wire. There are also some sections of paved walks that remain. Nonetheless, there are still other traces that hint at the existence and functions of the camp. In the northwestern section of the area, the surface is covered for about 2 hectares by a mixture of ashes and sand. In this mixture, one finds countless human bones, often still covered with tissue remains, which are in a condition of decomposition. During the inspection, which I made with the assistance of an expert in forensic medicine, it was determined that the ashes are without any doubt of human origin (remains of cremated human bones). The examination of human skulls could discover no trace of« wounding. At a distance of some 100 m, there is now an unpleasant odor of burning and decay. In the southwestern direction, a portion of the camp terrain is covered by aluminum – enamel – glass and porcelain dishes – kitchen utensils – hand luggage – rucksacks – pieces of clothing, etc. There are innumerable holes and craters on the property."

Lukaszkiewicz summarized the investigations carried out a month earlier at that location as follows:210

"During the work on the terrain, I found no mass graves, which, in connection with the statements by the witnesses Romanowski and Wiernik, leads to the conclusion that nearly all of the bodies of the victims were burned, all the more so since the camp was liquidated early and the murderers had much time. The ground of the camp was ploughed and sown. Ukrainians were settled there, who fled before the arrival of the Red Army (witnesses Kucharek and Lopuszyński)."

Regarding Belzec, we find the following on pages 79 f of Mattogno’s Belzec in Propaganda, Testimonies, Archaeological Research, and History [large PDF], much praised by Mr. Ugly Voice (bolding emphases are mine):

On October 12, 1945, the Regional Investigative Judge of the district court of Zamosc, Czeslaw Godzieszewski, presented an “Account of the diggings in the cemetery of the Belzec extermination camp,” in which he set down the findings from the inspection of the Be ec camp he had made that day, aided by 12 workers. In this context, he wrote:242
The opening labeled No. 1 was taken down to a depth of 8 m and a width of 10 m and attained the bottom level of the graves. During the operation, at a depth of about 2 m, we struck the first layer of ash stemming from incinerated human bodies, mixed with sand. This layer was about 1 m thick. The next layer of ash was discovered at a depth of 4 – 6 meters. In the ash removed, some charred remains of human bodies were found, such as hands and arms, women’s hair, as well as human bones not totally burnt. We also recovered pieces of burnt wood. In trench No. 1, the layer of human ash stopped at a depth of 6 meters. The opening labeled No. 2 was taken down to a depth of 6 meters. In this trench, the layer of human ash began at a depth of 1.5 m and continued down to a depth of some 5 m, with occasional breaks. Here, too, the ash contained human hair, part of a human body, pieces of clothing, and remnants of incompletely burnt bones. Openings labeled Nos. 3 and 4 were freed to a depth of 3 meters. In hole No. 4, at a depth of 80 cm, we found a human skull with remnants of skin and hair, as well as two shinbones and a rib. Furthermore, at a level of between one and three meters, these holes yielded human ash mixed with sand and fragments of incompletely burnt human bones. Openings labeled Nos. 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 were dug to a depth of 2 m, but showed only human ash mixed with sand and human bones, such as jawbones and shinbones. Throughout all the excavations it was observed that the camp cemetery had already been disturbed by wildcat diggings; this is borne out by the fact that the layers of human ash are not uniform but mixed with sand. The recovered human bones; the bodily remains, which where in a state of complete decomposition; and the ash were collected in a common location to await the arrival of the district surgeon. Work was stopped at 17:30 hours.”
The next day, October 13, 1945, the findings were inspected by the coroner. The subsequent report describes primarily the results of the examination performed by the judge and the coroner:243
During the inspection of the area of the extermination camp, particularly during the excavations at the place of the cemetery on October 12, 1945, a large number of human bones were found, such as skulls, parts of skulls, vertebrae, ribs, collarbones, shoulder blades, arm bones, lower legs, wrists, fingers, pelvic bones, thigh bones, lower legs, and foot bones.Some of the bones mentioned are either partly burnt or had not been burnt at all. Except for a few skulls showing rotting scalp and hair, the majority of the bones are free from soft tissue. Among the remains of human bodies recovered on October 12, 1945, we identified two forearms and a lumbar portion of the backbone with some soft tissue and traces of carbonization. The lumbar section belongs to an adult, whereas the forearms come from a child a few years old. From the size of the various bones one can conclude that they belong to persons of different age groups, from two-year-olds up to very old people, as borne out by toothless jaws and numerous dentures. Among the jawbones found there was one partially burnt specimen containing milk teeth as well as incipient permanent teeth, which indicates that it belongs to a person 7 to 8 years of age. No traces of bullet holes or other mechanical wounds were found on the skulls. The long bones show no traces either of gunshot wounds or fractures. Because of the advanced state of decomposition it was very difficult to say to what organs the recovered shapeless portions of soft tissue from human bodies might belong. In ahole dug by the local population in a search for gold and valuables, two lower legs belonging to a two-year-old child were discovered. These members are partly decomposed, partly mummified. The area of the cemetery, in particular the wildcat holes, is covered with layers of human ash of varying breadth, which stem from the incineration of human corpses and wood; they are intermingled with sand in varying proportions. The color of the ash varies between light-ash and dark gray; the ash has a heavy consistency and smells of decomposing human bodies. In the ash, charred human bones as well as pieces of charcoal are clearly visible. In the lower strata of the ash the smell of decomposition is more pronounced than in the layers nearer the surface. The hair discovered belongs mainly to women, as shown by their length and by the type of arrangement (braids and buns fixed with hairpins). In addition to natural hair, we encountered ladies’ wigs as well. With this, the inspection was terminated.”
The coroner’s expert opinion, which comes at the end of the report, reached the following conclusions: The bones found were human in origin and came from a “very large” quantity of corpses; these corpses had been interred about three years earlier; some of them did not present traces of incineration; and the examination of the skulls and other samples excluded shooting as the cause of death.

The parts I emphasized in the above quotes show that the Poles reported finding traces of huge mass graves or a huge mass graves area, namely deep pits and ground saturated with human ashes and other remains, pointing to the incineration of corpses on a very large scale (2 ha = 20,000 square meters covered by human remains at Treblinka, with the depth of the graves found to be 7.5 meters; graves up to a depth of 6 meters or more at Belzec, with layers of ashes one or several meters thick, the “area of the cemetery” being covered with “layers of human ash of varying breadth”). Regarding Treblinka, it was explained in my article Polish investigations of the Treblinka killing site were a complete failure … that the data contained in the Polish investigation report are enough to establish that there was enough room in the killing area of Treblinka extermination camp to bury the bodies of at least the 713,555 Jews who, according to the report sent by SS-Sturmbannführer Höfle in Lublin on 11 January 1943 to Obersturmbannführer Heim in Krakow, were delivered at Treblinka until 31.12.1942, which means that the physical traces of the mass killing are compatible with the order of magnitude that becomes apparent from the documentary and demographic evidence. Regarding Belzec, comparison of the 1945 report with Prof. Kola’s findings shows that the 1945 commission found only a part of the mass graves identified by Kola in his 1997-1999 study, but also here the early Polish report makes Mr. Ugly Voice’s speculations about there eventually being no physical traces compatible with large-scale mass murder look rather ridiculous.

Why one should dismiss the reported results of these postwar Polish investigations Mr. Ugly Voice does not explain; apparently he believes that attributing them to “the Soviets and Soviet-installed governments” is enough to discredit these reports. Yet not only does the corroboration of the early Polish investigation results by evidence completely independent thereof (e.g. defendants’ depositions and eyewitness testimonies before West German courts and documents discovered by Western historians, like Höfle’s report to Heim of 11 January 1943) belie the notion that these reports were in any way manipulated, but the absence of manipulation also becomes apparent from the fact that the Poles sometimes openly stated that they were not able to identify certain features of the respective camp described by eyewitnesses, which a hypothetical superior entity interested in a “story” would certainly have required them to “identify”. Thus examining judge Lukaszkiewicz reported that he failed to find the location of the so-called “Lazarett” of Treblinka, where old and/or infirm deportees were bumped off so that they would not hold up the “processing” of the bulk of deportees at the gas chambers. He also didn’t find the foundations of the Treblinka gas chambers, which he would surely have “found” if he had “cooked” his report according to instructions received, as the “Revisionist” creed likes to claim or insinuate.

The absence of any reason to dismiss the results of the early Polish investigation reports in turn means that, on account of these reports alone, the examination of the physical evidence of the mass killing at the AR camps is by no means as poor as Mr. Ugly Voice would like it to be.

Of course it’s easier to indulge in whining and accusing speculations about why not “more” has been done in terms of physical examination than to explain why what has been done is supposed to be oh-so-woefully insufficient, which is why the former is what Mr. Ugly Voice dedicates most of this episode 18 to.

Mr. Ugly Voice tells his viewers that the «The lack of searching for physical evidence is shocking.» The reason why he considers this “lack” so “shocking” is a joke: because «scientists will do core sample studies on all sorts of things». Yeah, Mr. Ugly Voice, I’m sure they will, especially geologists, for whom core sample studies are a key method to establish geologically relevant events and developments. But here we are not talking about geological events and developments that a geologist’s work is about, we are talking about crimes and historical events and about the means that criminal investigators and/or historians have at their disposal and tend to use in order to reconstruct a crime or historical event.

So the question is, do these means necessarily include core sample studies or other soil examinations where the event in question is a large-scale mass murder? Can such event not be also and eventually better reconstructed by assessing documentary and demographic evidence and by interrogating participants in and witnesses to the crime? Are soil examinations standard procedures in forensic or historical investigations of mass killings, or are such events reconstructed also, chiefly or even exclusively by other means?

The mass killings of Jews and other undesirables by the Nazis may occupy a prominent place in the record of man-made horrors throughout history, but they are by no means the only such horrors. The Stalinist regime killed millions of its own citizens, and so did that of Mao Tse Tung in China. Pol Pot’s Khmer Rouge murdered at least a million Cambodians between 1975 and 1979, and the Rwandan government had at least 500,000 members of the Tusti ethnicity slaughtered in 1994. These are but a few out of many possible examples regarding which I would be rather surprised if Mr. Ugly Voice or anyone else could show me that what we know about these mass killings is essentially based on detailed investigations of the physical evidence rather than on eyewitness testimonies, documentary evidence and demographic data. Stalin, for instance, had about 700,000 people executed in the course of his great purge in 1937/38, yet only a fraction of the mass graves containing these and other victims of Stalinist terror have been investigated. The same goes for the ca. 1.6 million victims of Stalin’s notorious penal camps. According to an investigation conducted in the 1970s by the West German Federal archives, Red Army troops killed about 24,500 German civilians at 2,620 crime sites east of the Oder and Neisse in 1944/45, yet nowhere did the investigating commission unearth any dead bodies or look at the soil underneath the killing sites, instead basing its conclusions exclusively on eyewitness reports from the various document collections related to the eastern lands. I also know of no site investigation conducted to establish the fate of any of the hundreds of thousands of Germans who lost their lives in the course of postwar expulsion from Poland, Czechoslovakia and other countries of Eastern Europe, many of whom were done to death in places like the infamous Lambinowice concentration camp in Silesia.

The list could be extended at will to cover many other large-scale crimes that “Revisionists” will hardly be “skeptical” about, especially such of Communist regimes, regarding which whatever investigations of physical evidence have taken place have covered but a relatively small part of the respective death toll, if any at all. If there is a “lack of searching for physical evidence” regarding Treblinka and the other Aktion Reinhard(t) camps, there is also such a “lack” regarding the overwhelming majority of mass killings not only throughout the past century, but throughout the whole of human history. Yet this “lack” has not kept historians or criminal investigators from reconstructing such historical events with a great degree of accuracy on the basis of other evidence, leaving no room for reasonable doubt as to the occurrence and magnitude of these events.

In what concerns the Aktion Reinhard(t) killing sites, there should also be taken into account two factors hindering physical investigations of the killing sites.

One is that, until about 15 years ago, these sites were in a country whose Communist dictatorship had, after the investigations conducted in the immediate postwar period, not shown much interest in supporting research about the mass killings at those camps – or, for that matter, at Auschwitz-Birkenau, the Hydrokop tests being a noteworthy exception to this rule. Jean-Claude Pressac wrote about this lack of interest on page 264 of his book AUSCHWITZ: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers:

After the work done by the Examining Judge, Jan Sehn. on the question, the Poles felt no need to probe any further. After Jan Sehn’s death in 1957, nobody thought to pursue or question his study of the Krematorien where the homicidal gas chambers were located, because the facts were considered to be obvious, as plain to see as the sun in the sky. What is more, a certain anti-semitic past, which ought to be forgotten in view of the vicissitudes suffered by the Poles since 1945, turned their historical research away from this field, where the findings were known and accepted, towards work on Polish resistance during the war for the survival of that country.

The other factor is related to the victims of the Aktion Reinhard(t) killings having been overwhelmingly Jews (though Romany were killed at those camps at well), and that Jewish religious beliefs prohibit disturbance of the peace of the dead. These religious considerations have led to enraged protests against the “desecration” caused by the soil investigations at Belzec, which are referred to in Part 1 of my article Carlo Mattogno on Belzec Archaeological Research:

[…]Last June, I warned on these pages that "Despite assurances by museum officials that 'we are being careful in construction not to disturb any human remains,' anyone familiar with the Belzec terrain, saturatedin its depth and breadth with the ashes and bones of the Jewish dead, knows that this is well nigh impossible."

With the recent publication of Andrzej Kola's book "Belzec: The Nazi Camp for Jews in the Light of Archaeological Sources," no one involved with the memorial project can claim ignorance of the desecration that has occurred.[…]

So we can see that, from the availability of more accurate means of establishing the death toll of these camps and the methodology of criminal investigation and historical research to considerations of religious piety, there are multiple reasons for the “lack of searching for physical evidence” bemoaned by Mr. Ugly Voice.

Yet our friend doesn’t see let alone mention any of these.

Instead his true believer’s one-track mind leads him to treat his readers to a crybaby session about what he claims to be the cause of said “lack”: the “harassment” that has come down on the poor “scientists” who have undertaken physical examinations of Nazi extermination sites in the past.

The “scientists” that our friend presents as victims of such “harassment” make this episode 18 a particularly laughable piece of horse manure.

One of them is Fred Leuchter, the pseudo-engineer commissioned by “Revisionist” guru Faurisson whose nonsense regarding cyanide traces in the gas chambers of Auschwitz-Birkenau, along with other ignorant and/or dishonest crap, was debunked years ago in the Leuchter FAQ series on the Nizkor site and is also exposed as what it is by Prof. van Pelt in his expert report submitted for the Irving-Lipstadt lawsuit.

The other is one of our steady customers, Mr. “Many Names” Rudolf, the guru of the “Revisionist” faith whose pseudo-scientific hoaxing, though more sophisticated than that of Leuchter, was thoroughly debunked by his professional colleague Dr. Richard Green, especially here and here.

If these ideologically motivated charlatans can be called scientists, then I’m the Pope of Rome, Minnesota.

Both of them have been “harassed”, for sure – by people who felt disgusted by their pseudo-scientific distortions in the service of anti-Semitic and/or Nazi-apologetic hate mongering and clearly expressed this opinion. Rudolf has also been prosecuted under German hate speech laws and is currently awaiting trial in Germany, which Mr. Ugly Voice apparently expects his viewers to start blobbing about. Yet neither the “harassment” nor Rudolf’s prosecution were related to those poor darlings merely having undertaken physical examinations of the Auschwitz-Birkenau mass killing site, as Mr. Ugly Voice would have it. They are related to both having consciously and willingly produced pseudo-scientific trash in order to deny proven historical facts that did not fit their ideological beliefs, built around admiration of the Nazi regime and/or loathing of Jews.

I don’t think much of the German hate speech laws under which Rudolf is being prosecuted, because I think nobody should be prosecuted for speaking or writing nonsense and also because such laws are counterproductive in that they give hate-mongering charlatans like Leuchter and Rudolf an excuse for the miserable results of their “research” and also a chance to portray themselves as martyrs. But as concerns the “harassment”, I think that crybaby whiners like Mr. Ugly Voice should bear in mind that free speech works both ways. On the one hand it gives people like Leuchter and Rudolf the right to utter any crackpot theory or other trash that comes into their minds. On the other hand, however, it gives people disgusted by such trash the right to openly and loudly say so and to tell the likes of Leuchter and Rudolf that and why they consider them to be full of shit.

So when these charlatans invoke the right of free speech, they should be aware that others have this right as well, and be prepared to bear the consequences. Complaining about “harassment” in reaction to their filth only shows what hypocrites and pussies these people are.

No, Mr. Ugly Voice, it’s not the “harassment”. Honest and objective researchers who stick to evidence and facts have no “harassment” let alone legal prosecution to fear, be it in the United States or in countries where hate speech legislation is applied. Only charlatans who convert their “research” into mendacious pamphlets supporting a hate-speech agenda are subject to such consequences – but then, they will only be getting what they were looking for.

After he has finished crying about the plight of his darling “scientists” Leuchter and Rudolf, Mr. Ugly Voice advertises one of the legacies that Rudolf has left on the VHO website, Mattogno’s Belzec in Propaganda, Testimonies, Archaeological Research, and History [large PDF]. He focuses on the chapter dedicated to Prof. Kola’s archaeological research and essentially regurgitates Mattogno’s claims that are the subject of my article Carlo Mattogno on Belzec Archaeological Research.

Ugly Voice starts out with the inane remark that Prof. Andrzej Kola and his team were “handpicked” and commissioned by the USHMM and a Polish “Holocaust rememberance group” and that it’s unlikely that these entities picked someone who had any possibility of finding things that didn’t support the “story”. Ever heard about conspiraloons, Mr. Ugly Voice? Well, you should, because you definitely are one.

After this showpiece of imbecility, Mr. Ugly Voice uses a “simplified” map of Prof. Kola’s findings drawn by Robin O'Neill to spin crap about the mass graves identified by Prof. Kola that he obviously took from Mattogno: some of the graves have irregular shapes, the graves are all over the camp site, the graves are aligned in a fashion that is not “military” and also not sanitary, and all of that goes against the coulda-shoulda-woulda – thinking that “Revisionists” are so fond of. All of this nonsense was already addressed in Part 2 and in section 4.6 of my article Carlo Mattogno on Belzec Archaeological Research, where it was explained that

• the graves, as described by Kola, are concentrated in the western and north-western part of the camp area on the one hand and in the eastern part of the camp area on the other, the former lying close together whereas the latter are more scattered;

• aligning the graves close to each other in a “military” fashion might have led to grave walls too thin and thus subject to collapsing in sandy soil like that at Belzec, and also made the removal of the soil taken out of the graves more difficult;

• most of the graves have the form of squares or rectangles, and where there are irregular shapes, as especially in the case of grave no. 14, it is reasonable to assume that these resulted from changes to the original grave structure, due to the camp staff’s ash disposal and leveling work at the end of the camp’s operation or to postwar robbery digs; and

• the SS personnel of Aktion Reinhard(t) were no military trained specialists in grave digging, but came mostly from the previous Aktion T4, the killing of physically and mentally disabled patients in mental health institutions falsely dubbed "euthanasia", and are unlikely to have undergone proper military training.

As to Mr. Ugly Voice’s ensuing superposition of O’Neill’s “simplified” map and a map shown in Yitzhak Arad’s book on the Aktion Reinhard(t) camps, I would like to be able to say that this is Mr. Ugly Voice’s own baloney and not something taken from Mattogno. Alas, it isn’t, for on pages 75 f. of his Belzec book Mattogno writes that

(...) an examination of the map of Belzec as published by Arad forces one to conclude that the quarters of the Ukrainian guards, the hygienic installations (barbers, infirmary, dentists for the SS and the Ukrainians), the kitchen for the Ukrainian guards, the garage, and the shoemakers’ and tailors’ workshops (shown on the map as numbers 3, 4, 5, 7 and 8) were located right next to mass graves or even on top of them!

As Arad’s map is not drawn to scale and does not claim to accurately portray the relative sizes, positions and distances of the camp objects shown on it, it’s rather silly to make a fuss about “inconsistencies” revealed by comparing this map with that of Kola or with O’Neill’s “simplified” version thereof – a rhetorical gag for suckers that I'm not surprised to see from a 3rd-rate rambler like Mr. Ugly Voice, yet would have expected the great guru Mattogno to do without. But then, as I wrote at the end of part 5 of the aforementioned article, the comparatively talented Mr. Mattogno is also just another hoaxing “Revisionist”.

Ugly Voice’s regurgitation of Mattogno’s stuff about Kola’s Belzec study continues in episode 19 of the video, which will be the subject of my next article on this blog. Stay tuned.


Anonymous said...

Singular millionfold megamassmurder without a *single* corpse? Think about it :-) Reminds me of Saddams WMDs.

Sergey Romanov said...

Where are all the corpses of Stalin's victims? Or do you accept that Stalin is only responsible for Katyn, where the bodies have been found? :-)))

To think one needs brain. Something you are sorely in need of.

Roberto Muehlenkamp said...

Apart from the «without a *single* corpse» stuff being a singularly ignorant piece of horse manure at best.

To quote a friend of mine,

«If they had brains, they would be idiots».

Anonymous said...

How much "brains" dya need to believe that the biggest ever massdestructors of mankind were also accidentally the biggest massdestruction-evidence-destroyers of mankind and thats why theres no holocaustforensics? stupid "allied" snuffpropaganda :-)

Philip Mathews said...

Massive amounts of human ash and bone aren't forensic evidence?

I'd post anonymously too if I were so stupid!

Sergey Romanov said...

"How much "brains" dya need to believe that the biggest ever massdestructors of mankind were also accidentally the biggest massdestruction-evidence-destroyers of mankind and thats why theres no holocaustforensics? stupid "allied" snuffpropaganda :-)"

1) I won't ask about the whereabouts of your brains. But where are your spaces?

2) Where's Communist crimes forensics?

3) Why don't you address what had been found at the sites of extermination camps?

Anonymous said...

1) I won't ask about the whereabouts of your brains. But where are your spaces?


2) Where's Communist crimes forensics?

Stalins Forensics Experts were the ones doing all the "factfinding" in the Treblinka (a place of massdestruction) case and guess what, besides all the treblinka massdestruction factfinding they even tried to frame the nazis for katyn. Here in germany we call that "bock zum gaertner machen" :-)

3) Why don't you address what had been found at the sites of extermination camps?

Was that like as "irrefutible" as that massdestruction evidence they found in irak? Was it inspected by impartial united nations inspectors?

Sergey Romanov said...

So, Brainless, how about answering these questions:

"Where's Communist crimes forensics?"

"Why don't you address what had been found at the sites of extermination camps?"

Roberto Muehlenkamp said...

>Stalins Forensics Experts were the ones doing all the "factfinding" in the Treblinka (a place of >massdestruction)

Wrong, it was a Polish examining judge and a Polish public prosecutor. Not only are their findings compatible with evidence which they could have no influence on or didn’t even know about, they also openly stated that they failed to find certain things in the camp (the “Lazarett”, the foundations of the gas chambers) that they would certainly have “found” if they had manipulated their report.

>case and guess what, besides all the treblinka massdestruction factfinding they even tried to >frame the nazis for katyn. Here in germany we call that "bock zum gaertner machen" :-)

Guess what, there was more than one Soviet investigation commission. And some if not most of them found things that are confirmed by evidence that they could have no influence on or didn’t even know about, so it’s rather unlikely that they “cooked” their reports.

Here’s something translated from a contemporary German document, for your enjoyment. You find it under the link :

A letter to Rosenberg enclosing reports from Generalkommisar for
white Russia, Kube, about the extermination of Jews in the east,
June 18 1943
[Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression - Washington, U.S Govt. Print.
Off., 1946, Vol I, p. 1001]
...The fact that Jews receive special treatment requires no further
discussion. However, it appears hardly believable that this is done
in the way described in the report of the General Commissioner of
1 June 1943. What is Katyn against that? Imagine only that these
occurrences would become known to the other side and exploited by them!
Most likely such propaganda would have no effect only because
people who hear who hear and read about it simply would not be ready
to believe it.

>3) Why don't you address what had been found at the sites of extermination camps?

>Was that like as "irrefutible" as that massdestruction evidence they found in irak?

No, it’s solid evidence for the reasons explained above.

>Was it inspected by impartial united nations inspectors?

Give us a list of crimes committed by the Stalinist government, or the US government, or any other government you loathe, that were investigated by “impartial inspectors”.

And it better be a long one.

Anonymous said...

yakno, this holocaust thing looks to me evidencewise as if in irak there never was a un-inspection and we would have to take the word of the us and gb governments for what real and whats fake:

About 99% bullshit what is about the bullshit factor i think is true for the "holocaust", another invasion/occupation legitimizing "sexup"...

Sergey Romanov said...

Dear Brainless-Who-Can't-Spell, Iraq is irrelevant to this blog. There was never credible evidence for WMD is Iraq, and none was found after the invasion. No Iraqi official gave coerced testimonies about WMD. So shut the fuck up about Iraq and answer the following challenges:

Where's Communist crimes forensics?

Why don't you address what had been found at the sites of extermination camps?

Anonymous said...

Dear Sergej, Iraq is relevant to the holocaust becuz in iraq the only two governments at the table in nuremberg that had some credibility (US+GB) demonstrated to the world that they routinely fake massdestruction evidence. so there is simply no credible "instance" left that you could believe anything about the holocaust. the quality of the holocaust evidence is at best "circumstantial" and really really reminds me of the "evidence" provided by US+GB in the iraq invasion case with the only difference being that the iraq evidence was thrown out by un-inspectors and the holocaust evidence never having been "inspected" by anybody at least a little bit "impartial"...

the holocaust has been "sexed" up for sure by the sowjets and the west. the only question is how much has it been sexed up. in iraq after intensive un-inspection it became clear, that almost 100% of the WMD's claimed did not exist. so maybe 10% of "the holocaust" is real and 90% fake but we will not know for sure until everything including treblinka (PMD Place of Mass Destruction) has been inspected by the united nations. so untill then: shut the fuck up and dont make stupid jokes about the topic as if you knew it all...

Nick Terry said...


You can resolve the question of the Holocaust w/o going to the sites. Indeed you will have to, since if you claim that nothing happened at the camp sites, then presumably in your world many millions did not die.

If you think the Holocaust is 90% exaggerated, please prove the survival of 5 or so million Jews after 1941/1942 and into the postwar period.

I wish you the best of luck, since two generations of deniers have been trying to find them and have so far failed.

And yes, the burden of proof is on you with this one, since you're the one accusing people.

Sergey Romanov said...

Dear Shit-for-brains-Who-Can't-Spell, there is no evidence that US and UK faked anything about Iraq. Very soon after the invasion official commissions established absence of alleged WMD stockpiles.

So, if they didn't fake anything in Iraq, they didn't fake anything with the Holocaust. Easy!

Now answer the challenges:

Where's Communist crimes forensics?

Why don't you address what had been found at the sites of extermination camps?

PS: Do you also think that evidence against Stalin was forged by anti-Communists? If not, why not?

Anonymous said...

Dear Nick, can you really prove the existence of saddams WMD's without "going there"? the PMD's (Places of massdestruction) of the "holocaust" were exclusively located behind the "iron curtain" in stalinland. until 1990 when the sowjets finally conceded, that *they* were responsible for the PMD "katyn". So since 1990 it would be possible for the first time to do a real "inspection". But nobody does ist :-)

Regarding the 5M "lost polish jews", can you prove where those 5M Newisraelis came from in the time after 1945? Maybe from eastern Poland?

The "proof of burdon" is always on the district attourney. if he wishes to prove a millionfold massmurder without a corpse, he has a real problem and can not simply reverse the proof of burdon.

Sergey Romanov said...

[denier mode on]
"until 1990 when the sowjets finally conceded, that *they* were responsible for the PMD "katyn"."

Those were filthy Gorbachevites who destroyed USSR. OF COURSE they "admitted" the guilt. Just like the Bundestablishment now "admits" the guilt for Holohoax.
[denier mode off]

"if he wishes to prove a millionfold massmurder without a corpse, he has a real problem and can not simply reverse the proof of burdon."

Nazi mass murder has been proven. Now answer the following challenges:

Where's Communist crimes forensics?

Why don't you address what had been found at the sites of extermination camps?

Anonymous said...

Dear Sergej, the only "communist forensics" i know of are the output of the international commission assembled by the nazis that inspected the katyn PMD. Since the Sowjets were not defeated "unconditionally" ever, there are no forensic reports on the victims of stalinism. had the nazis conquered more PMD in the sowjet union there would be more forensic reports. the nazis knew in katyn that nobody would believe them in katyn, so they assembled the international forensics team. why should we believe what the sowjets say they found in the PMDs Treblinka and co without international inspection?

What exactly has been found at the sites of the PMDs? What would you expect to find to prove millionfold massmurder beyound the shadow of a doubt?

Sergey Romanov said...

"Dear Sergej, the only "communist forensics" i know of are the output of the international commission assembled by the nazis that inspected the katyn PMD. Since the Sowjets were not defeated "unconditionally" ever, there are no forensic reports on the victims of stalinism."

OK, according to such logic nobody can blame Stalin for anything :-)

[denier mode on]"had the nazis conquered more PMD in the sowjet union there would be more forensic reports. the nazis knew in katyn that nobody would believe them in katyn, so they assembled the international forensics team."

1) This was a Nazi team. 'Nuff said.

2) Of 12 "experts" only 1 had been from a neutral country, and then again he might have been an anti-Commie.

So, sorry, but this so-called Commission is not unbiased, so its findings are unacceptable.

So there is no forensic evidence of any of Stalin's crimes. Heheheh.

And even if the Nazi Commission's findings were acceptable, that would only prove that the Soviets were responsible for Katyn. No other victims. Heheheh.
[denier mode off]

Roberto Muehlenkamp said...

>The "proof of burdon" is always on the district attourney. if he wishes to prove a millionfold >massmurder without a corpse, he has a real problem and can not simply reverse the proof of >burdon.

The burden of proof, genius. Which can be met – and has been met, in the case of your Nazi heroes’ mass killings – by assessing several types of evidence, of which physical evidence at the killing site is but one and not necessarily one that must be looked at, unless you can show us any procedural rules or rules of evidence known to you that require this.

>why should we believe what the sowjets say they found in the PMDs Treblinka and co without >international inspection?

Because, as already explained, evidence on which the Soviets (or the Polish criminal justice authorities examining Treblinka, which you seem unable to tell from “the Soviets”) couldn’t have had any influence or didn’t even know about, assessed by Western historians and/or by West German criminal justice authorities, has confirmed that Treblinka was a mass killing site and that hundreds of thousands of people were murdered there.

I asked you for a list of crimes committed by any government you loathe (Stalinist, US, Israeli, etc.) that were investigated by “impartial inspectors”, by the way. Do you already have it?

>Regarding the 5M "lost polish jews", can you prove where those 5M Newisraelis came from in >the time after 1945? Maybe from eastern Poland?

Hardly, if you look at present-day Israeli population data, like those rendered under :

note: includes about 187,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank, about 20,000 in the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights, and fewer than 177,000 in East Jerusalem (July 2006 est.)
Ethnic groups:
Jewish 80.1% (Europe/America-born 32.1%, Israel-born 20.8%, Africa-born 14.6%, Asia-born 12.6%), non-Jewish 19.9% (mostly Arab) (1996 est.)»

So there are 5,088,046 Jews in Israel these days (80.1 % of 6,352,117 inhabitants of Israel). Of these, 2,039,030 (32.1 % of 6,352,117) were born in Europe (not necessarily eastern Europe let alone eastern Poland) or in America. The rest were born in Israel or came from Africa or Asia.

I think you have a problem here, my boy.

But thanks for helping to keep our readers’ attention focused on this article. As its author, I truly appreciate that.

Anonymous said...

roberto, a reversed burdon of proof is a proof of burdon. the cia says that 1/3 of current israelis were born in that "bermuda triangle" where millions of corpses canished during nazi rule and the rest being children of polish immigrants born in israel (so called sabres). Israelis have a "western" birthrate like 2.0 or less that means the population does not really grow over the years but comes exclusively from immigration. so the question remains: where did those 5 million come from originally? in poland 5-6M disappeared and in israel 5M dropped out of the sky. think about it.

Nick Terry said...

Anonymous said...
roberto, a reversed burdon of proof is a proof of burdon.

> you mean burden of proof. And no, the burden of proof is on you, not us. You're the one making the extraordinary claim.

the cia says that 1/3 of current israelis were born in that "bermuda triangle" where millions of corpses canished during nazi rule and the rest being children of polish immigrants born in israel

> Nope. And no amount of juggling with statistics will ever help you prove your idiotic argument.

(so called sabres).

> sabras. God, your spelling is appalling. And your ignorance.

Israelis have a "western" birthrate like 2.0 or less that means the population does not really grow over the years but comes exclusively from immigration.

> false.

1) you evidently haven't bothered to look at the data for natural population increase before 1948 under the British Mandate. The birth-rate was running about 2 times the European average *at the time*.

2) Israeli birth-rates were very high in the succeeding decades, and have only recently converged with European fertility levels. Indeed, many Israeli-born daughters of European-born mothers produced more children than their mothers.

3) Jews from the Islamic world, Sephardic Jews, have a very high fertiliy rate even today, noticeably higher than

4) Much immigration recently is from Russia, which has thereby reduced the Jewish population of Russia to very little. None of them got to leave before ca. 1970, at which time there were nearly 2 million Jews left in the Soviet Union. Now there are well under 1 million.

so the question remains: where did those 5 million come from originally?

> See above.

in poland 5-6M disappeared and in israel 5M dropped out of the sky.

> Really? I don't think so. Israel's population only crested the level of 5-6M in the past 15 or so years. That was a good 40-50 years after the Holocaust. Where do you claim they hid in the meantime?

think about it.

> like *you've* put more than five seconds' thought into making up some lies on the spot. Actually, you'll find we *have* thought about it, which is more than can evidently be said for your imbecilic rantings.

But do keep entertaining us. You have to be the most stupid denier we have encountered for a long time.

Roberto Muehlenkamp said...

Anonymous said...
>roberto, a reversed burdon of proof is a proof of burdon.

Yeah, and a reversed beast of burden is a burden of beast, right? Boy, are your stupid.

>the cia says

The CIA says nothing, it just publishes population statistics it got from demographic sources.

>that 1/3 of current israelis were born in that "bermuda triangle" where millions of >corpses >canished during nazi rule

The data say that 32.1 % of Israel’s Jews are of European or American origin. We don’t even know how many are from Europe and how many from America. And those of European origin may be from any European country, including Great Britain.

>and the rest being children of polish immigrants born in israel (so called sabres).

Where did you read that? Show me.

>Israelis have a "western" birthrate like 2.0 or less that means the population does not >really >grow over the years but comes exclusively from immigration. so the question >remains: where >did those 5 million come from originally?

What 5 million are you talking about? We have two million of European or American origin, don’t know how many of the former and how many of the latter. And we have another 3 million locally born or from African or Asian countries.

>in poland 5-6M disappeared and in israel 5M dropped out of the sky.

How about reading the figures before writing trash, my friend?

And how about considering the very likely possibility that those Jews who emigrated to Israel from Europe after World War II were from among the 3,642,000 Jews, out of an 9,740,000 at the start of the war, who were still in Europe in 1946 (data from )? To rule out this possibility, you would have to show that Jewish population of Europe today is more or less what it was in 1946. Feel free to give it a try.

>think about it.

Thinking is what you should do. But you don’t seem to be capable of it.

Philip Mathews said...

As usual anonymous, you don't know what you're talking about.

Immigration to Israel since 1948 has about 2.9 million.

About 576,000 came from Poland, Rumania, Bulgaria, Hungary Czechoslovakia, Germany and Yugoslavia. Of this number 175,000 came from Poland.

Around 1.1 million came from the former Soviet Union, almost all of them after the empire fell, beginning in 1990.

5-6 million Jews did not disappear from Poland. There were about 9.5 million Jews in 1939 in the areas which came under Nazi control, leaving about 3.5 million who survived. I'm afraid immigration to Israel doesn't help you account for a missing 6 million Jews.

Roberto Muehlenkamp said...

Nick wrote:
>But do keep entertaining us. You have to be the most stupid denier we have encountered for a >long time.

Yeah, this guy is fun. I hope our readers are enjoying him as well.

Anonymous said...

Well trust no statistic you havent faked yourself as we say here in germany :) In Israel there are 5M Jews and during the war 5M disappeared without a fucking trace. you go figure it out. go "over there" and start digging but please dont come babbling about "massdestruction" without forensic proof. "angloamericans" are completely fucked when it comes to credibility in massdestruction-factfinding. so make your snobbish jokes but please dont expect anybody to believe your stupid snuffphantasies any more :-)

the holocaust is a nice one after all... black clothed military guys with leather boots up to their ass leading naked women and children into "suffocation chambers" and then watching them get snuffed thru a "peephole"... nice american snuffphantasie but please spare the rest of the world such crap.

Sergey Romanov said...

"during the war 5M disappeared without a fucking trace"

Hey! Finally Brainless got something right! The thing is, deniers still cannot explain where these Jews went. Ooooops!

"but please dont come babbling about "massdestruction" without forensic proof."

Demographic proof is also good. Brainless failed to explain where the missing millions of Jews went.

Also, does Brainess reject the Communist mass destruction?

Roberto Muehlenkamp said...

Sergey wrote:
>Demographic proof is also good. Brainless failed to explain where the missing >millions of >Jews went.

And for “forensic proof”, our friend may explain why Polish criminal justice authorities found an area of ca. 20,000 square meters at Treblinka covered by human ashes and other remains, which the soil was saturated with to a depth of 7.5 meters. And why Prof. Kola identified 33 mass graves with a volume of about 21,000 cubic meters at Belzec in his 1997-1999 study. Babbling that “the Soviets”, “the Americans” or whosoever was behind these investigations and always lies doesn’t cut it.

I hope our friend will stay with us. The more hysterical he gets, the more fun he is.

Anonymous said...

Hi everybody,

Aoris calling from Berlin. I'm afraid I introduced Brainless to this wonderful blog. He regularly posts in two German forums (; And all he ever posts there is the same rubbish he tried on you guys here. So I thought I let him know about this nice place. In every bullshit thread he posted over there I posted the link to here as a reply. I think I will continue to post the link in his threads so that as many members of the community as possible will know about this wonderful blog :-) And in the future I will post a link to this little discussion here so that people will know how Brainless (a.k.a. "Erez Israel") got kicked in the nuts by some real Holocaust experts :-) BTW, is the most read forum in the German internet. So prepare yourselves for new members and lurkers from Good Ole' Germany (most are not as stupid as "erez").

Sergey Romanov said...

Aoris, thanks. Can you perhaps give a link to your discussions?

Anonymous said...

I used to discuss with him on a regular basis when he used the nick "erez israel".

"erez israel" got banned on a year ago or so for Holocaust denial. Since then he used up a few dozen nicks that all got banned for Holocaust denial. Recently I started dropping the link to this blog in his threads and I will continue to do so. And no, I don't agree with denial laws in Germany. I think he should be allowed to freely deny in German forums. That would allow me to drop links to here even more often :-)

Anonymous said...

Hi Aoris, ueberschlag dich mal nicht gleich mit "wonderful blog" und so. Deine transatlantische Froindschaft in Ehren, aber diese "Massenvernichtungsexperten" hier... ick wees ne... Einen beim leisesten Massenvernichtungszweifel gleich mal als "Typ mit Scheisse statt Hirn" zu titulieren ist lame und ihr "Rebuttal" dieses "Ugly Voice" Videos ist aeh irgendwie schwach bis nicht existent. Schau dir die Seite an, ausser paar bloeden Scherzchen und "wer ist der haesslichste SS Mann" contests ist
in dem blog nix massenvernichtungserhellendes zu finden fuerchte ich :-)

Stell dir vor, du wuerdest dich mit Kritik und Zweifeln vertrauensvoll an deinen Prof wenden und der wuerde statt auf deine Argumente einzugehen versuchen dich vor versammeltem Hoersaal laecherlich zu machen und rhetorisch fragen, ob du wohl "Scheisse im Hirn" haettest. Ich wuerde denken, dass der keine Sachargumente hat und sich "auf die Witzige" um eine ernsthafte Diskussion druecken will...

Merk dir mal: wer beim Thema Massenvernichtung mit emotionalen Argumenten oder Beleidigungen ankommt, der hat schon verloren. Diese Blogger hier haben wahrscheinlich auch Irakkriegsgegner als "unpartiotisch" beschimpft damals.

Sergey Romanov said...

Dear Brainless, first, your next message not in an English language will be deleted.

Second, you're an obvious hardcore denier, an anonymous one, at that. Thus the name.

Third, you haven't addressed any arguments here, much less the definitive demolition of the Ugly Voice's videos.

Fourth, I was always against the aggression against Iraq.

Thus, my calling you Brainless is spot on!


Anonymous said...

Hi erez,

I really am happy to see that you followed my suggestion and visited this wonderful blog. And what's more you even posted comments here. That's just splendid :-) As I said since this is such a woderful blog I'll make it known to all of the community by continuing to post the link in every one of your threads on heise. I'll also post the link to this little discussion here because it is impressive how you answered any and all of the arguments raised here. As Sergey already mentioned:

"Third, you haven't addressed any arguments here, much less the definitive demolition of the Ugly Voice's videos."


So, really nice that two old heise buddies meet here again and I'll see you back at heise.

Aoris (a.k.a. Kentaurus)

P.S.: erez, don't forget to visit It's a great forum where deniers and anti-deniers fight it out. It's the only forum where freedom of speech is maintained for both groups as the owner of the forum, Scott Smith, guards that freedom vigorously even though, amazingly, he is a Nazi and denier himself. So it's quite a unique place and you should not miss to visit it. This blog here was founded by members of rodoh, so one could say that it is a rodoh spin off. I would post links to in your threads on heise but unfortunately I'm not sure how long my postings on heise would survive seeing as rodoh is a denier as well as anti-denier forum. Yeah, I know. I myself am against those German laws. Well I could try to post the link on heise, just as an experiment. Maybe they allow it, seeing how deniers' arguments get demolished without exception on rodoh. Well, we'll see. Til then :-)

Anonymous said...

Hi Ken, maybe you can repeat the word "demolition" a few more times so everybody believes it even without anyone producing a few million corpses. i think of israeli bulldozers if i hear "demolition of arguments", but thats what these zionlovers here probably are doing anywayz: bulldozing unpopular massdestruction opinions by namegiving and lame jokes :-)

Thanks for the link anyways. is there a german speaking "uncensored" massdestructionforum anywhere?

Sergey Romanov said...

Hi, Brainless, have you found those millions of Stalin's victims yet?

Sergey Romanov said...

Alternatively, my dear Brainless, you might actually try to address our demolition of UV videos. As of yet, you're just another brainless denier who is afraid of the debate.