Saturday, April 09, 2016

A short update on Mattogno and Aktion 1005

I have just added one more document to my post "Once More, With Feeling: Deniers And Aktion 1005, 10 Years Later". It not only explicitly mentions  both SK1005a and SK1005b, it also calls them a task of the Reichsführer-SS Himmler which was a secret Reich matter and which was given to Paul Blobel - something Mattogno and his freaky sidekick Graf have always desperately tried to deny.

That means that thus far at least 5 German wartime documents mentioning the designation 1005 are available to researchers (not including the letter from Müller to Luther, the treatment of which Mattogno completely botched, and not including the documents that clearly speak about this action but do not mention the designation). Wheareas Mattogno claimed that there are none, which, to repeat, makes him a fraudulent clown.

30 comments:

ghostuser said...

Can you guys do something on the Majdanek Furnace that was used for gassing prisoners with Carbon monoxide? As Its hard to find anything which refutes deniers on it.

As well I found this but I have no idea if its trustworthy as it comes from that of the guidebook.

"In addition, there were two openings in the western wall, through which hot air (120 degrees C) was blown in by a ventilator from a stove placed on the outside of the chamber, which alone killed the victims"

I also came across this on the USHMM websites.

"The rear side of a gas chamber. The furnace to the right was used to create carbon monoxide for gassing prisoners. (Post-Liberation)."
http://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/pa1042833

I am not sure about anything else on this furnace, if you have anything on it please let me know.

J Kelly said...

I really like Mattagono and Graf. The more they try the sillier they look. It's like they keep shooting themselves in the foot with different bullets.

The Black Rabbit of Inlé said...

Ghostuser said: Can you guys do something on the Majdanek Furnace that was used for gassing prisoners with Carbon monoxide? As Its hard to find anything which refutes deniers on it.

That's probably because no-one who knew what they were talking about has ever claimed the furnaces were used for CO gassings. So, "deniers" don't *deny it* and no-one has to refute their non-denial.

CO in cannisters supplied from Germany is how the majority of gassings are presently claimed to have been carried out at Majdanek, and some, but comparatively few, are thought to have used Zyklon B. This book contains the most up to date view on homicidal gassings at Majdanek:
http://www.worldcat.org/title/extermination-of-jews-at-the-majdanek-concentration-camp/oclc/159953985


Ghostuser said: As well I found this but I have no idea if its trustworthy as it comes from that of the guidebook.

"In addition, there were two openings in the western wall, through which hot air (120 degrees C) was blown in by a ventilator from a stove placed on the outside of the chamber, which alone killed the victims"


You've actually taken that from scrapbookpages.com. It's referring to Chamber 3. The museum has since revised its claim about that gas chamber. Presently, only gassings with bottled CO but none with Zyklon B are said to have taken place in there. The the hot air furnace was added in Nov 1943 when the Nazis modified it into a delousing gas chamber using Zyklon B, they claim.


Ghostuser said: I also came across this on the USHMM websites.

"The rear side of a gas chamber. The furnace to the right was used to create carbon monoxide for gassing prisoners. (Post-Liberation)."
http://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/pa1042833


The same photo and caption appear in Holocaust Encyclopedia [W. Laqueur et al., 2001]. It's a good example of rubbish passing for scholarship.

Jeff said...

you have no idea what you are talking about, so sad....

The Black Rabbit of Inlé said...

That's one of Jeff's better attempts at a rebuttal.

So funny.

Jeff said...

awww, she's angry now. Go suck your thumb and hug your teddy bear till your little heartache gets better okay little girl?

The Black Rabbit of Inlé said...

Careful Jeffrey. You might find Dr. Nick is forced to start deleting your comments again as you made him do on this thread.

You're something of the anti-revisionist version of CODOH's Hannover: heavy on posturing, bluster, insults and trash talk, very light on knowledge and persuasive arguments.

Toodle-oo.

Jeff said...
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Jeff said...

I have forgotten more about this subject than you will ever know in your life. While you desperately scan newspapers for segments you can quote out of context, I read serious scholarly works on the period.

"Light on knowledge" that's funny Parklife, last I remembered your sad attempt at a drive by in the comment section for Dr. Harrison's article on Himmler's Soviet Speech got shot down rather effortlessly by my intimate knowledge on Nazi policy re slavs, something that you have little understanding of. I was more than willing to keep hammering away at your bunk thesis but you fled the thread.

In sum I view you to be the revisionist equivalent of nessie - you don't really know that much and tend to limit your activities to spamming, copying and pasting, and dull repetitions to give the impression of knowledge that you know you don't posses. Your nonsequiters on outliers in early reports, Weisel, and other nonsense gives me the impression of someone who is half literate. Your rambling little video featured a blueprint from March of 1942 to prove your thesis on events that took place ,several months afterwords. Hardly erudite. Your docu-porn is akin to a child screaming "look teacher, I wead a book!". You fit right in at RODOH where sympathetic moderators protect you from scrutiny. Not so at SSF.

Your also one to talk about bluster and insults what with your constant demeaning insults towards the owners of this blog. Just letting you know that in the real world (the one outside your mum's basement) no one likes a guy that dishes out but can't take it.

J Kelly said...

Anyone have any suggestions on books on Majdanek? It is the camp I know next to nothing about. It is a bit off topic for this post but ghostuser peaked my interest with the above comment.

Nicholas Terry said...

"Anyone have any suggestions on books on Majdanek? It is the camp I know next to nothing about. It is a bit off topic for this post but ghostuser peaked my interest with the above comment."

Tomasz Kranz from the Majdanek Museum has one short work in English, The Extermination of the Jews at the Majdanek Concentration Camp. The museum has recently revamped its website and has an online bookstore, which might now take credit cards.
http://ksiegarnia.majdanek.eu/en/

In English, Elissa Mailander's Female SS Guards and Workaday Violence is about Majdanek, published last year in translation and in German in 2009. While it focuses on the very small group of SS-Aufseherinnen working at Majdanek, it provides a decent amount of background information as well.

In German, Barbara Schwindt, Das Konzentrations- und Vernichtungslager Majdanek (2005) is the most comprehensive recent account, and focuses on the changing functions of the camp. Both Mailander and Schwindt use the Duesseldorf trial investigation, as well as other sources.

A definitive study has yet to be written.

J Kelly said...

Thanks for the information. I've looked around and didn't see books just on Majdanek itself. Chelmno has the same problem, Patrick Montague's book on the camp is the only one I've found that is extensive and in English.

ghostuser said...

From what I Know of this furnace it was added with the intention of heating up Zyklon-B... And no your are incorrect as to the claim of canisters only.

http://m.imgur.com/HizLcUu

Gas chamber B1 has still been claimed to use CO and Zyclon B. Gas chamber B2 is claimed to ether have never been used, as it has no power supply or traces of cyanide.

Gas chamber A was part of the original construction which was not altered (split) as the chamber was originally planned as a Delozusing chamber. The Germans made a change of heart. As for the furnace addition date I will take your word for it but according to the holocaust encyclopedia on page 450 the furnace wasn't used for gassing till after 44, big I'll leave this up for debate.

I do believe this is possible to use it for gassing, as modern gas powered heaters put off CO... And going off from the Guidebook it appears to have a good enough power to do so.

It should also be said that the scrap book also again states it is from the guidebook, If I remember correctly it is the 1997 one -.- ether way it still is a source.

This again in no way proves anything and you should explain why the furnace couldn't be used for gassing. Thank you for the reply though.

Sergey Romanov said...

Two points for everyone:

1. Avoid sexist or otherwise bigoted commentary.

2. Avoid using Holocaust-denying sites like scrapbookpages as serious sources.

blake121666 said...

ghostuser is somewhat confused about gassing.

Furnaces were never used to heat Zyklon-B.

Gas chamber B2 is claimed to ether have never been used, as it has no power supply or traces of cyanide.

What does "has no power supply" have to do with being a gas chamber?

... the furnace wasn't used for gassing till after 44 ...

What does a furnace have to do with gassing?

I do believe this is possible to use it for gassing, as modern gas powered heaters put off CO

That is a bizarre understanding of things. The claim is that bottled CO was used.

Just to clear things up for ghostuser, Zyklon-B are pellets with cyanide in them which evaporates out when exposed to air. Here is a graph of the evaporation curves for 4 temperatures. If you heated Zyklon-B with an oven you would risk converting the HCN (hydrogen cyanide) into harmless CO2, water, and nitrogen compounds. Warm air is what is desired - not hot air.

ghostuser said...
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ghostuser said...
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ghostuser said...

"2. Avoid using Holocaust-denying sites like scrapbookpages as serious sources."

I got it off JVL, Check their Majdanek page, Ends up they quote it there.

Jewish Virtual Library's on Majdanek.

"ghostuser is somewhat confused about gassing."

Ok, I'm Listening?

"Furnaces were never used to heat Zyklon-B."

If this is so then why were the furnaces installed? You need to remember that Auschwitz had a Heating system of its own.

"Auschwitz, 6 March 1943. Subject: Krematoria 2 + 3. 'In accordance with your suggestion, Cellar I should be preheated. At the same time we would ask you to send an additional quotation for the modification of the air extraction installation in the undressing room.' S.S. Sturmfuhrer, Bischoff."

Its from Van pelt in the film Mr. Death.

"What does "has no power supply" have to do with being a gas chamber?"

If you looked at the Imgur link you would see what I was talking about.

The furnace that was connected with Gas chamber B2 was removed but the furnace had no power supply to run off from, No piping, and no traces of any cyanide. This is why it was concluded to never have been used. This Furnace was moved to fill the place of the missing one from the Delousing chamber aka located at room C.

Here is the Furnace of Gas chamber A and The Furnace of Gas chamber B2 both taken at liberation.

"What does a furnace have to do with gassing?"

It was powerful enough to gas prisoners aka with CO as said on JVL In addition, there were two openings in the western wall, through which hot air (120 degrees C) was blown in by a ventilator from a stove placed on the outside of the chamber, which alone killed the victims...""

Its not that it is a supporting factor to gassing, its that it might have been used for gassing.

"...The claim is that bottled CO was used..."

CO bottles were used for both Gas chamber A and B1... But B1 is also claimed to use Zyklon-B

Here is a photograph of Gas chamber B1. You can see a hole in the roof in which the Zyklon-B was dropped through.
Which Is even claimed by the Majdanek camp.

Please note there was no connected furnace to B1.

"...Zyklon-B are pellets with cyanide in them which evaporates out when exposed to air.."

The gas does start to release from air, but Heat also helps it release faster. The Furnace would not have to run for to long... It would only have to heat the room enough to change the temperature for the gas to release. The Furnace was simply put "a heater" and not created to burn out the whole room. Also It should be mentioned the gas does has to vaporize... as at room temperature the gas is a liquid.

blake121666 said...

The scrapbookpages write-up has it all wrong. If it is indeed based on a "guidebook" bought at Majdanek, that guidebook is woefully ignorant on these subjects. Or the write-up based on that guidebook has miscomprehended whatever that guidebook said. I wouldn't go by that write-up. Killing people from the CO put out by a furnace is a VERY screwball claim. No one makes this screwball claim today. The "quote" from that guidebook on that page you link to is beyond silly as well. Either find that "guidebook" to verify that quote or assume it is a bogus quote - or, at the very least, misconstrued into silliness. For instance, this "quote" from it:

...the carbon monoxide from a steel cylinder got in through this pipe. In addition, there were two openings in the western wall, through which hot air (120 degrees C) was blown in by a ventilator from a stove placed on the outside of the chamber, which alone killed the victims and, at the same time, intensified the action of Cyclone B

How ridiculous can one get? There are 3 simultaneous killing methods described in this snippet: CO through a perforated pipe, heat from the furnace (120 degrees C!), and Zyklon. Should anyone even attempt to take this seriously?

BTW, the Zyklon would be harmless with 120C heat applied to it - not that this story has any merit anyway.

If you're claiming that fumigated rooms were warmed from a furnace, that is eminently sensible - the other claims are questionable to say the least.

ghostuser said...

Thank you for the corrections Blake, and yah I really needed this clarified. I have sent him a request to upload a PDF or something of the 1997 book he quoted these from, but he hasn't really responded nor uploaded it

I am very much so unsure of it... But I guess Is should have known this from a person who believes that the Krema at auschwitz must have been bakeries.

J Kelly said...

My understanding of Majdanek is that it utilized both carbon monoxide and Zyclon B.
The death toll for Majdanek is sketchy, it ranges from 59,000 to 360,000. It really is too bad a more definitive study does not exist for the camp, I don't know why no one has tackled it yet. It was a very large camp that the Soviets captured practically intact.
I wonder if the issue is that there is a lack of documentation on the camp.

J Kelly said...

Oh, and ghostuser, the person that runs the Scrapbook Pages blog/website is a she, not a he.
Trust me, it surprised me as well.

Nicholas Terry said...

"It really is too bad a more definitive study does not exist for the camp, I don't know why no one has tackled it yet. It was a very large camp that the Soviets captured practically intact.
I wonder if the issue is that there is a lack of documentation on the camp."


Actually, a great deal of documentation exists for Majdanek, but it does not seem to be complete, judging by comparisons with other KZs, and the kinds of reports that different departments produced.

The main reason why not as much has been written directly about Majdanek in English is because the Majdanek museum has been writing about the camp in Polish since the 1960s. Documents on Majdanek are archived at the museum, the museum also collected testimonies in large numbers, but these are most often in Polish, because the majority of survivors of the camp who had prolonged stays there were Poles. Jewish survivors typically spent only a brief time in the camp in summer 1943 before being transferred; there are hardly any survivors from the deportees arriving in 1942 - a few who escaped or were transferred before 'Erntefest' in November 1943.

Therefore, while most victims of Majdanek were Jews, the weight of evidence and testimony that survives can easily make it seem like Majdanek was a camp largely for Poles, so it was somewhat left to Polish historians, overwhelmingly those employed by the Majdanek museum. German-speaking historians have also worked on the camp in the past 15 years, and there are some interesting studies e.g. of the various Majdanek trials in German, produced by an Austrian research project.

Now put yourself in the shoes of a PhD student in the English-speaking world, e.g. studying in the US, Canada or Britain. There are many other topics in the Holocaust or Polish history to study, and Majdanek was already covered quite well in German and Polish. Therefore, it's not that "no one" has tackled Majdanek, rather it just seems like that because the scholarship on the camp is almost entirely in Polish and German.

J Kelly said...

Good point.
Unfortunately for me I have a hard time with foreign languages. From what you've written on your blog there are a lot of books in German or Polish about the Action Reinhard Camps that are updated. I own Arad's seminal work as an e-book but it would be great to have something more current. I've found books on-line about the individual camps that I am reading.
I did enjoy the on-line treatment you guys did on the Action Reinhard Camps, the rebuttal of Mattagono, Graf and Kues. Are you guys contemplating doing anything else like that, say, for Auschwitz-Birkenau?

Eric Danielski said...

Rebuttal of Mattogno on Auschwitz

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.de/2014/10/rebuttal-of-mattogno-on-auschwitz-part.html

J Kelly said...

Thank you, I've read that. It was very informative. I was looking for something the length of the Action Reinhard study but I understand doing something like that is very time consuming.

ghostuser said...

"Oh, and ghostuser, the person that runs the Scrapbook Pages blog/website is a she, not a he. Trust me, it surprised me as well."

I guess the more you know, o.O .... To be honest its both surprising and maybe worth an eye twitch.

The Black Rabbit of Inlé said...

ghostuser said From what I Know of this furnace it was added with the intention of heating up Zyklon-B... And no your are incorrect as to the claim of canisters only.

http://m.imgur.com/HizLcUu


There were no CO gassings with the heater and no-one asides from the Holocaust Encyclopaedia ["hardly anything but a tertiary source"] claims there were. Even the pamphlet quoted on the scrapbookpages.com [the article is heavily plagiarised by Jewish Virtual Library] doesn't say that the heater killed with CO but with air at "120 degrees".


ghostuser said This again in no way proves anything and you should explain why the furnace couldn't be used for gassing.

I'm not claiming it's impossible for this type of heater to be used to generate CO for homicidal gassings, only that NO ONE [the Holocaust Encyclopaedia aside] has ever claimed it was. Not the early Soviet reporters who visit the camp [i.a. Simonov and Gorbatov]; not the August 1944 Extraordinary Polish-Soviet Commission; not one of the several dozen books I have on the camp; not one of the many pamphlets published by the camp I've consulted, and not one of the signs displayed in the museum has ever made this claim.

Barbara Schwindt wrote the following about this heater:

"Das Düsseldorfer Landgericht stellte jedoch fest, daß es möglich gewesen sei, Zyklon B in den Lufterhitzer zu schütten und so in Kammer III, die keine Öffnung in der Decke aufweist, zu leiten. Demzufolge wäre nur Kammer III auf den Einsatz von Zyklon B beschränkt gewesen."

No mention of it being used to generate CO.

Above you have posted Jean-Claude Pressac's diagram from his article The Deficiencies and Inconsistencies of "The Leuchter Report". Pressac's said nothing about CO gassings with a heater; he did effectively say that there had been no Zyklon B homicidal gassings at Majdanek and only CO gassings [from cannisters] were conducted in Chambers 1[B1] and 3[A].

Tomasz Kranz doesn't go quite as far, he believes that some Zyklon B homicidal gassings happened in Chamber 1[B1], and *possibly* in Chamber 4[C].

As for the other two sources mentioned by N. Terry: books by Elissa Mailänder and Barbara Schwindt. Mailänder relies entirely on Schwindt's book for her treatment of homicidal gassings at Majdanek [she says as much on page 342 endnote 74; and manages to contradict herself on the number of homicidal gas chambers at the camp] so Mailänder's claims don't need addressing. Schwindt plagiarised "deniers" Mattogno and Graf in her study [see p.247], she states that Zyklon B gassings did occur in Chambers 1[B1], 2[B2], 3[A] and she won't rule out that they occurred in Chamber 4[C].

Sergey Romanov said...

Pressac, although a decent "raw" researcher, showed that he could be a pretty sucky "interpreter" of the totality of evidence (see his later musings on the death tolls of Auschwitz and AR camps which are pretty nonsensical), so while his conclusions should be "read", they should not be supposed to be on the same level as those of the more professional historians tackling the same topics.

The Black Rabbit of Inlé said...

Pressac was a court-approved expert on Nazi gas chambers.

"Professional historians" Tomasz Kranz and Elissa Mailänder have both supported the absurd claim there were seven purpose-built homicidal gas chambers at Majdanek. Mailänder still does, unless she's changed her mind since her Terry-recommended book was published; Kranz has since distanced himself from "the seven".

Schwindt and Kranz contradict each other entirely about far too many issues for me to bother detailing here. Although they are in agreement about Chamber 4, and both appeal to Pressac for confirmation!