Sunday, November 27, 2016

Sketches of German Homicidal Gas Vans

So far, there are eight witnesses known to have produced drawings of homicidal German gas vans or parts therof. A sketch of a gas van operating in Minsk made by the Wehrmacht soldier Erich W. on 18 September 1962 for West-German investigators can be examined only in the Niedersächsische Hauptstaatsarchiv, NDS. 721 Hannover Acc. 97/99 Nr.10/28, p. 191. The remaining seven drawings are reproduced in this posting. 


Paul Dickkopf, member of the German Security Service: 



(drawing from a report of 9 February 1944 for the Swiss Intelligence, Schweizerisches Bundesarchiv, E27#1000/721#9928-6*, p. 62)


Jerzy Fojcik, car mechanic in Kolo:



(drawing attached to his testimony of 6 July 1945, AIPN GK 165/271, tom III, p. 221; cf. BArch B162/21962, p. 357ff.)


Jozef Piaskowski, car mechanic in Kolo: 


 (drawing attached to his testimony of 10 June 1945, AIPN GK 165/271, tom I, p. 16)


Bronislaw Falborski, car mechanic in Kolo: 


 (drawing attached to his testimony of 11 June 1945, AIPN GK 165/271, tom I, p. 28)


Zenon Rossa, car mechanic in Kolo:


(drawing attached to his testimony of 13 June 1945, AIPN GK 165/271, tom I, p. 43)


Michael Lewandowski, car mechanic in Kolo:


(drawing attached to his testimony of 4 July 1945, AIPN GK 165/271, tom II, p. 189)


Miroslaw Junkiert, car mechanic in Kolo: 


(drawing attached to his testimony of 13 July 1945, AIPN GK 165/271, tom IV, p. 320)

98 comments:

Sergey Romanov said...

> can be examined only

Is it informative?

Hans said...

Not too much, it shows a cargo box wth double doors in the back.

Harrison Ivaz said...

Hello friends from HC,

I follow your blog regularly, where has Roberto gone to? His eloquent and informative post are absent from here, and RODOH. I'm also planning on posting a challenge to deniers on RODOH, in the vein of the ones used to discredit "believers" - $75 to provide evidence of mass transits out of the AR camps (that is if they ever accept my request to join, of which I have submitted two now).

Keep up the good work.

Negroid said...

Can you prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that 6 million (or however many million) Jews were gassed, and then cremated (with the technology of that era), with absolute evidence removing reasonable doubt/logical pitfalls, outlining the exact methodology and avoiding smoking guns and here-say? I have only seen people pointing at puddles of blood and crying out murder, but that is not nearly sufficient enough evidence for the largest genocide in recent human history. You cannot make absolute claims without presenting absolute evidence. "But where did the Jews go"=/=mass gassings & cremations, "but the Nazis never denied it"=/=mass gassings and cremations, "look at these dead bodies"=/=sufficient evidence for mass gassings & cremations, only objective evidence (removing logical pitfalls and reasonable doubt) is illustrative of mass gassings and cremation. Smoking guns are non-arguments. There should be no single topic beyond the burden of proof, otherwise it is subject the the projection of arbitrary whims exploiting the topic and extending their faith in the matter over the fact of the matter.

Negroid said...

Until you can provide absolute evidence, like forensic evidence for the six million (or however many you wish to believe in) corpses, illustrating it beyond any doubt what-so-ever, then, logically, the claims are not rational. Euphemisms and here-say are not rational arguments.

Gabi said...

This should be good...

Negroid said...

There is a burden of proof which is not met. You need forensic evidence, absolute proof beyond reasonable doubt stating that six million Jews were gassed using the methodology the narrative puts forth, and that their bodies were cremated thereafter within the time frame and with the technology of that era. The "German efficiency" claim is not one that supersedes reality itself. The Holocaust should not be a special case that does not require absolute proof, simply because it is an emotionally charged case. That is just making a fallacious special pleading case. Until you can provide this evidence, outside of "But I saw it, and so did he!" or "well, what do YOU think happened to them" (i.e. overt, undeniable, absolute proof of your claims without any logical pitfalls), then one must find it ironic how you claim others are conspiracy theorists for questioning your faith in the events.

Gabi said...

Thank you for basically repeating you previous comment.
I'm just waiting for Nick or Sergey to roll around. Not saying anything.

Negroid said...

So you cannot craft arguments, and instead rely on others to do your critical thinking for you? Way to make the case that reason and rational thought are on your side. Not an argument. The burden of proof is on you, but I have read whatever "Nick" will post, every piece of evidence that is more commonly passed off it akin to a smoking gun, or somebody pointing at a puddle of blood and crying murder. God forbid you people ever walk into a courtroom, the standard of evidence is conveniently dulled down whenever your narrative is at stake.

Gabi said...

I can craft arguments by myself, it's just that I was never good at writing... especially in English. I'm think for myself, but the talking I usually leave for others.

Gabi said...

"I'm think for myself". See how shit my English is? Hope this clarifies why i'm not keen on writing anything myself.

Negroid said...

Alright, well I await the smoking guns and euphemisms which cannot be used as evidence in a court of law, but are somehow applicable to make a logical verdict when it comes to the Holocaust.

Gabi said...

Whatever makes you happy, mate.

Nathan said...

-Can you prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that 6 million (or however many million) Jews were gassed, -

This Idiot really isn't worth "debating" here when he doesn't even know what the Holocaust was. No one (outside of denier strawmen) has claimed that all 6 million were "gassed". On this very blog, for example, there are literally countless photos of mass shootings, intentionally inhumane conditions in Ghettoes, and the like. There are also discussions of documented killing actions with the intent to make areas "judenfrei"- i.e. Genocide. Any sort of "hoaxing" is simply impossible due to it being beyond the victors' agenda to begin with- The West wanted a strong Germany and recruited former Nazis, and the USSR under Stalin and Kruschev was very antisemitic and buried the Genocide against the Jews. There was no intent to "forge" evidence on either side of the iron curtain, so all the evidence - photographs, documents (explicit or otherwise), statements and forensic tests can be accepted as 100% genuine.

The Piece of shit troll really doesn't know what he's talking about. The West German courts were heavily staffed by former Nazis and they sided with the perpetrators more often than the victims, but even they never denied that the crimes took place. They allowed the defendants to (see Majdanak), but they themselves never denied it. Negroid's bullshit about "courts of law" shows he's full of shit.

Nathan said...

Also, courts are about the law and Justice, not the truth. A historian or researcher's purpose is to find out the truth. The court's purpose is to determine the extent of an induvidual's guilt and how the law applies to it, not necessarily the truth. Dumbass is an idiot who really doesn't know what he's talking about.

Luiz Carlos Cordioli said...

Pergunte aos ex-oficiais nazistas Oskar Groning, Joseph Klehr, Franz Schumomel e Hans Munck, Rudolf Hoss e Paul Blobel!Eles estiveram lá e confirmaram a existência das câmaras de gás, dos crematórios e dos fuzilamentos em massa.Tente desqualificar os depoimentos dele se for capaz! !!!

Luiz Carlos Cordioli said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Luiz Carlos Cordioli said...

Assino em baixo!!!!

Nathan said...

- the smoking guns and euphemisms which cannot be used as evidence in a court of law-

https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/rule_401

"Rule 401. Test for Relevant Evidence
Evidence is relevant if:

(a) it has any tendency to make a fact more or less probable than it would be without the evidence; and

(b) the fact is of consequence in determining the action."

https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/rule_402

"Rule 402. General Admissibility of Relevant Evidence
Relevant evidence is admissible unless any of the following provides otherwise:

the United States Constitution;
a federal statute;
these rules; or
other rules prescribed by the Supreme Court.
Irrelevant evidence is not admissible."

https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stpo/englisch_stpo.html#p1642

"Section 244
[Taking of Evidence]

(1) After examination of the defendant, evidence shall be taken.

(2) In order to establish the truth, the court shall, proprio motu, extend the taking of evidence to all facts and means of proof relevant to the decision."

So, the dumbass troll doesn't know what he's talking about. Anything is evidence and admissible, so long as it can help prove something. Dumbass must've pulled this out of his ass. Or, he can't think for himself and is merely parroting Other people's talking points.

Fucker.

Gabi said...

Wrong language, Lu.

Sergey Romanov said...

"Can you prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that 6 million (or however many million) Jews were gassed"

LOL, go back to school, boy.

Jonathan Harrison said...

Gibbering chimps like the above are all that HD has left.

Negroid said...

"his Idiot really isn't worth "debating" here when he doesn't even know what the Holocaust was."
Not a logical argument contributing anything of substance. Try again. However many million Jews were gassed, as per the narrative. Until you can prove this, it did not occur.
"On this very blog, for example, there are literally countless photos of mass shootings, intentionally inhumane conditions in Ghettoes, and the like."
Quote me directly where I stated that these events did not occur. The point of contention is gassing and cremation. Try again.
"so all the evidence - photographs, documents (explicit or otherwise), statements and forensic tests can be accepted as 100% genuine."
Until you can provide this absolute evidence explicitly and beyond reasonable doubt (i.e. no logical pitfalls), then your stance is truth. Otherwise, that which can be asserted without evidence can be denied without evidence. Try again.
"The Piece of shit troll really doesn't know what he's talking about."
Way to make the rational case. Not an argument.
"Test for Relevant Evidence"
Evidence that is not relevant is alluding to gassings and cremation because the party doesn't deny it (but you never said you weren't 'x' is not an argument), because they stated it somewhere (taking euphemisms as legitimate in order to advance your arbitrary narrative is not an argument), or assuming that forensic evidence that leaves bloody trails is somehow proof (that is, of the gassings and cremation of millions of Jews as per the exact methodology and within the timeframe), then you should not be allowed anywhere near a courtroom. You are assuming guilt before innocence. Kangaroo courts are more up your alley if you wish to pervert evidence to match your arbitrary narrative. Conspiracy theories aren't real arguments. Try again.
"LOL, go back to school, boy."
Not an argument. Try again. See how far it gets you, chasing smoke and mirrors and telling people to "go back to school" when they put your fallacious claims up for scrutinizing.

If you want to prove that your side is the personification of Lady Justice, making ad-homs and refusing to provide sufficient, rational evidence (that should be simple and easy to prove for such a publicized and popular topic that you claim obviously occurred) is not the way to do it.

Negroid said...

"Also, courts are about the law and Justice, not the truth."
The truth is justice. If it is not truthful that the murderer who was tried and convicted was actually guilty of the charges, then it was not proper justice. What a weak and illogical argument.
"A historian or researcher's purpose is to find out the truth."
And of course, your historians always tell the truth, especially when they agree with your narrative. Until they don't, then they are "insert ad-hom here".
"Dumbass is an idiot who really doesn't know what he's talking about."
If the truth is so blatant and obvious, why get so upset and make fallacious statements, like ad-homs that contribute nothing, instead of providing absolute evidence for your claims? If you can't prove it, it didn't happen. Prove that the Third Reich was capable of constructing ovens that could cremate millions of people within the time frame. They had a finite amount of ovens, and stacking multiple bodies into one oven doesn't actually speed up the reaction, putting each body into one oven is actually a faster method (because there is more surface area exposed to the heat). The definition of cremation does not reference bones anywhere, which means the cremation process was carried out in full. If it takes 2-3 hours to cremate a body (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHBaCZ3slis, http://www.butlerfuneralhomes.com/_mgxroot/page_10745.php, http://www.cremationresource.org/cremation/how-is-a-body-cremated.html) with modern cremation ovens, does the math add up? You can over-hype the engineering capability of the Germans all you want, but for the rest of us in reality, that is not an argument.

Negroid said...

For example, according to this source (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/augas.html), it states: Crematorium I operated [at Auschwitz] from August 15, 1940 until July 1943. According to calculations by the German authorities, 340 corpses could be burned every 24 hours after the installation of the three furnaces.

August 1940- July 1943 is equivalent to 2 years and 11 months. Let's assume that each month is thirty days long, for convenience. So that is 24 hours*30 days per month)*(35 months)=25,200 hours. If Crematorium I operates at 340 bodies per 24 hours, parcelled equally per each furnace (three furnaces), that is a rate of about 113 bodies per furnace per day, which is about 4-5 bodies per hour per furnace. That is not possible, it takes much longer to cremate a body than 12-13 minutes PER BODY.

From the same source: The Crematorium II building, which contained a gas chamber and furnaces for burning corpses. Several hundred thousand Jewish men, women and children were murdered here with poison gas, and their bodies burned. The bodies of Jewish and non-Jewish prisoners who died in the concentration camp were also burned here. According to calculations by the German authorities, 1,440 corpses could be burned in this crematorium every 24 hours.
This does nothing to specify how many furnaces were at play. Let us assume that it meant a single furnace. That means that a single oven could burn 60 bodies per hour, which means that fully cremating a human body to ash in ovens that are now eighty years old would take just one minute. This is mathematically impossible. Let us assume that there were 10 ovens. This means that a single furnace could burn 6 bodies per hour, which is a single body every ten minutes. This is also impossible. Let us assume that 100 ovens were used. This means that a single furnace/oven could fully cremate a human body one hour and 40 minutes. Only when we assume that 100 ovens were being used around the clock, without maintenance repair, or any other coincidence, is it even remotely possible to claim that the figures were being met. Keep in mind, as the narrative stands today, over one million Jews were gassed and cremated at Auschwitz. Our ovens today cannot match this efficiency. And you expect everybody to believe that the Germans could do that simply because it fits the story you wish to believe?

From the same source, the third Crematorium has the same figures. The fourth and fifth crematoria have different ones, though. It states: According to calculations by the German authorities, 768 corpses could be burned in this crematorium every 24 hours. According to the testimony of former prisoners, the figure was higher.
Again, let us make the same assumptions that gradually increase.
One furnace=32 bodies per hour. Impossible.
Ten furnaces=3.2 bodies per hour, or one body every 30 minutes. Not possible.
100 furnaces=1 body every 3 or so hours. Plausible, assuming no coincidences/malfunction. The narrative does not rely upon this many furnaces. The story is simply flawed.

Nathan said...

Again, let's take a look at actual rules of evidence, instead of the piece of shit's gibberish.


https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/rule_401

"Rule 401. Test for Relevant Evidence
Evidence is relevant if:

(a) it has any tendency to make a fact more or less probable than it would be without the evidence; and

(b) the fact is of consequence in determining the action."

https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stpo/englisch_stpo.html#p1642

"Section 244
[Taking of Evidence]

(1) After examination of the defendant, evidence shall be taken.

(2) In order to establish the truth, the court shall, proprio motu, extend the taking of evidence to all facts and means of proof relevant to the decision."

So again, the actual rules of evidence provided by the US Federal rules and the German code of criminal procedure don't support the gibbering chimp's assertions. Fuck him.

Nathan said...

The gibbering chimp should realize that incredulity isn't an argument by any stretch. The actual construction documents provided by topf and suhne tell us what the actual cremation capacity was, and also the actual methods use. All his gibberish about "modern cremations" show is that he lacks imagination and does not know what evidence is. Fuck him.

Nathan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Gabi said...

"Quote me directly where I stated that these events did not occur. The point of contention is gassing and cremation. Try again."

The question is why are you fixated on gassings and cremation. You admit that the nazis killed millions of Jewa via other methods (cause gassings did not kill more than 2 million). So, even if you are right and gassings are just an evil Jewish hoax that is used to weaken white males*, you still have between 3-4 millions who were killed by other things. Are 4 milliin dead Jews not as worse as 6 million?


"But I haven't anything like that!!!". Don't pkay games with us. I spoke with to many deniers to know that ALL OF THEM are alt-right white nationalists.You are just hiding behind pretty words and talk about rational logic.. but we know what you really how. Care to prove behind any reasonable doubt that the protockols of the elders of zion are resl?

Nathan said...

-Quote me directly where I stated that these events did not occur.-

-Can you prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that 6 million (or however many million) Jews were gassed, -

As anyone can see for themselves, Negroid is repeating the denier strawman that all the victims of the Holocaust were "gassed". No two ways about it.

Not only does he not respond to other people's criticism, he doesn't keep track of his own statements either. He's a worthless piece of shit.

Nathan said...

-cause gassings did not kill more than 2 million)-

And roughly only half of that (1.5) were killed at Auschwitz, where there were Kremas. Even then, not all bodies were disposed of via Crematorium; open air cremations were used as well. The construction docs let us know what the capacities were and show that even without the open air cremations, there was no problem disposing of the bodies. "Negroid" is a worthless piece of shit

Nathan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Negroid said...

"As anyone can see for themselves, Negroid is repeating the denier strawman that all the victims of the Holocaust were "gassed". No two ways about it."
Cognitive dissonance is real. If you bother to read the parentheses, that leaves space open for readjustment. From 4-7 million, or whatever you claim (if it is provable). You can strawman all day long, be my guest, but if you refuse to acknowledge statements, even though they were explicitly stated, then you cannot claim to make logical arguments. I am not denying other plights the Jews were subjected to, only gassing and cremation, the one that people claim was the biggest factor.
"Not only does he not respond to other people's criticism, he doesn't keep track of his own statements either."
If you have such an emotional reaction when anybody asks you for evidence of your claims, then I believe that you would also put your faith into claims that however many million(s) of Jews were gassed within 4 or so years.
"He's a worthless piece of shit."
Not an argument, try again. Maybe you need to go take a walk or something, cool your head. You seem to be too emotionally charged.

Nathan said...

Lots of gibberish, but not a single coherent response.

What a worthless piece of shit

Nathan said...

For readers interested in actual facts and evidence as opposed to the piece of shit's gibberish, the actual Crematorium construction documents are available on the topf and son website. The capacities are also listed. A quick calculation reveals that the Auschwitz death toll is easily within these capacities, and that's not even factoring the open air cremations.

Hans and Roberto also have excellent articles analyzing these papers.

Fuck Negroid


http://www.topfundsoehne.de/media_de/abb_062.html

Gabi said...

" gassing and cremation, the one that people claim was the biggest factor.". WHO?!
Simpletons? Common folk who don't know history? Find me proffesional historiographer who claims the majority of jews died by gassings.
I was tought abot the holocaust in the ISRAELI school system, and ecen we know that more people died via other methods than they fid via gassings.

Gabi said...

- How is questioning why I am fixated on gassings a logical refutation of anything put forth?

Who said I was even attempting to refute you?

Nathan said...

Again,

For readers interested in actual facts and evidence as opposed to the piece of shit's gibberish, the actual Crematorium construction documents are available on the topf and son website. The capacities are also listed. A quick calculation reveals that the Auschwitz death toll is easily within these capacities, and that's not even factoring the open air cremations.

Hans and Roberto also have excellent articles analyzing these papers.

Fuck Negroid


http://www.topfundsoehne.de/media_de/abb_062.html

Nathan said...

-To Gabi, I suggest you gloss over Israel Gutman's "Encyclopedia of the Holocaust", it does a good job of propping up the story. Mass majority of the common "Six million" figure are via gassings. According to the following source (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/gascamp.html), it states: The difference between the total of the victims of the gassings cited in the above mentioned composition and the number of victims of the operation groups and the total of roughly 6 million victims of the Nazi persecution of the Jews results from the fact that a very high percentage of the victims have lost their lives through indirect extermination actions such as the method "destruction through work," bad treatment, under nourishment, epidemics, exhaustion during forced transportations etc.-

Look at the bolded lines. Negroid really is an idiot. His quote explicitly says that a very high percentage of the victims have lost their lives through indirect extermination actions. It doesn't support his same quoted assertion that.
Mass majority of the common "Six million" figure are via gassings. . Negroid is a piece of shit troll. Fuck Negroid

Nathan said...

Can we ban Negroid? His trolling is childish and off topic. This is about well documented Gas vans, and he introduced some nonsense about Cremation. He also avoids discussing the evidence for mass cremation and keeps spamming gibberish.

Nathan said...

-why would our modern engineering devolve, as opposed to evolve, in regards to technological feats from eighty years ago? -
Straw man, and the piece of shit is comparing apples with oranges. The Auschwitz crematoria were purpose built to deal with a large number of bodies in an extermination program. Something that Civilian crematories are not intended to do, being primarily intended to deal with "normal" mortality. Negroid also ignores the actual situation in which these kremas were used, instead preferring to introduce irrelevant straw men.
Fuck Negroid.

Negroid said...

"Who said I was even attempting to refute you?"
Fair point, Gabby. I rescind my comment.
"piece of shit's gibberish"
Still not an argument, Nathan. Repeating the same non-sequiturs and making special pleading cases for yourself where you are not bound by the fallacies you commit means nothing and contributes nothing of substance. Try again.
"His quote explicitly says that a very high percentage of the victims have lost their lives through indirect extermination actions."
Certainly not relative to the total death tolls. Otherwise, the figures from the death camps and crematorium rates should be drastically lowered. So which is it? Were the majority executed outside of gassings/cremation (I do not debate executions occurred outside of gassings), or were the extermination camp figures/crematorium rates arbitrarily inflated/incorrect?
"Can we ban Negroid? His trolling is childish and off topic"
I had a feeling scrutinizing conspiracy theories would upset the sophists.
"This is about well documented Gas vans"
Read my original post, this is not remotely close to the point of contention. Gassings via gas chambers and cremation ovens thereafter. Try to stick to topic. I know it is hard, given how emotionally engaged you are.
"the piece of shit is comparing apples with oranges."
Comparing crematorium ovens to crematorium ovens is apples to orange? Not an argument.
"The Auschwitz crematoria were purpose built to deal with a large number of bodies in an extermination program."
You have not refuted the central point. If the Third Reich had engineering capabilities which could produce ovens that have rates as sourced above, then why do modern crematorium ovens not use (and expand) upon this technology? That is the logical conclusion, why not use their technology? They are both the same contraption, so why go with one version which is slower over one that is (impossibly) faster? Basic logic is against your side. They are both ovens. Why use the slower technology, the businesses in question would go out of business if you decided to start up a cremation service and use Third Reich technology, because it is (impossibly) fast. They would have done it already, if such technology existed.
"Negroid also ignores the actual situation in which these kremas were used"
To cremate a human body? Not an argument.
"Fuck Negroid."
I don't think you can make a single post where you aren't making fallacious statements, LOL. This is just sad, haha!

Gabi said...

You seriously can't figure out the differences between why krrmas were used back than, and are they used for today?

Negroid said...

"why krrmas were used back than"
The definition was to cremate a body. Let us say that the Germans designed them to be the most efficient and to burn the most bodies possible. If that is the case, why do modern cremation ovens not use that same technology? It's just common sense that the most competitive business is the one that can undercut its competitors, and in the cremation business, using more efficient ovens is logically the better option. So why does the market not offer the super-ovens of Germany, why have they devolved in capability? It is because those super-ovens were imaginary. At least, they are imaginary until you can alter the concept of a number to mean less than what it actually means, because that is the only way to get the figures to meet (cremating bodies at 30-60 minutes is a phenomenal rate, but it is not corroborated by modern cases of crematorium ovens).

Gabi said...

Why nobodys uses nazi oven technology today? Cause none of the kremas of today even attempt to burn thousands of bodies in short time. Its not used gor genocide today, therefore nobody NEEDS this technology. Genocide =\= burning dead bodies at the request of the deceased. THAT'S why Nathan said you're comparing apples to oranges.

Nathan said...

-Certainly not relative to the total death tolls. Otherwise, the figures from the death camps and crematorium rates should be drastically lowered. So which is it? Were the majority executed outside of gassings/cremation (I do not debate executions occurred outside of gassings), or were the extermination camp figures/crematorium rates arbitrarily inflated/incorrect?-

No one (outside of Denier Strawmen) has claimed that the majority of victims were "gassed". Gabi, Sergey and I have explicitly stated that this was not the case. Only the piece of shit (Negroid) has repeated the strawman that most victims were gassed.

Nathan said...

-You have not refuted the central point. If the Third Reich had engineering capabilities which could produce ovens that have rates as sourced above,-
For readers interested in actual facts and evidence as opposed to the piece of shit's gibberish, the actual Crematorium construction documents are available on the topf and son website. The capacities are also listed. A quick calculation reveals that the Auschwitz death toll is easily within these capacities, and that's not even factoring the open air cremations.

Hans and Roberto also have excellent articles analyzing these papers.

Fuck Negroid


http://www.topfundsoehne.de/media_de/abb_062.html

- then why do modern crematorium ovens not use (and expand) upon this technology? That is the logical conclusion, why not use their technology?-

What modern companies do or don't do is irrelevant. The cremation capacities of the Auschwitz Crematoria are documented, by the people who built them. The piece of shit can stomp his feet all he wants, but he's still a piece of shit.

-So why does the market not offer the super-ovens of Germany, why have they devolved in capability? It is because those super-ovens were imaginary. -
Non sequitur. And no one called the real and documented ovens created by topf and sons "imaginary". That's just a denier straw man.

This guy is the dumbest denier we've had in a while.

Nathan said...

Hans' article is about the very well documented Homicidal gas vans. Negroid's horseshit is a derail.

Negroid said...

"No one (outside of Denier Strawmen) has claimed that the majority of victims were "gassed". Gabi, Sergey and I have explicitly stated that this was not the case. Only the piece of shit (Negroid) has repeated the strawman that most victims were gassed."
Then by your own admission, you are alter the death toll by some significant margin, as gassing/cremation has always been shilled the most to the status quo.
"For readers interested in actual facts and evidence as opposed to the piece of shit's gibberish, the actual Crematorium construction documents are available on the topf and son website. The capacities are also listed. A quick calculation reveals that the Auschwitz death toll is easily within these capacities, and that's not even factoring the open air cremations."
You just repeated the same post, verbatim, that does not refute the central points. Posting the same post twice does not make it more effective if it doesn't refute the central point of impossible cremation figures.
"What modern companies do or don't do is irrelevant."
Actually, it kind of does. They are accurate ways of looking into the past.
"The cremation capacities of the Auschwitz Crematoria are documented, by the people who built them. The piece of shit can stomp his feet all he wants, but he's still a piece of shit."
Genetic fallacy, tell me what is so biased and incorrect about the source I used regarding the figures. You just whine about your dislike of the truth. I cited them from a Jewish source, if you even cared to look.
"Non sequitur"
No, it's a query into the logical reasoning behind why things are the way they are. If I give you an engine that can run much more efficiently, and has (allegedly) been at play for about eighty years, why do you not use said engine in your vehicle (let us say that you are a car manufacturer), as opposed to using a slower/weaker (and therefore inferior) one? You know that, in order to be competitive with your opponents (who will use the advanced engine because that is the rational thing to do), you must use it, too. It's a logical pitfall to your narrative. If you hold ideas that are logically shaky, don't be such a whiner when they get scrutinized. Until you can provide absolute, logical evidence (proving your claims beyond reasonable doubt) that does not involve here-say or smoking guns for what you claim to be one of the largest genocides in human history, then you cannot make absolute statements. Sorry to burst your little bubble, but that is how things work in the real world

Hans said...

Negroid, you are off-topic. Holocaust denier's arguments on crematoria are addressed elsewhere, like Rebuttal of Mattogno on Auschwitz, Part 1: Indoor Cremation and Viewer's Guide to "Auschwitz - The Surprising Hidden Truth" (Minutes 0 - 10).

Negroid said...

"Civilian crematoria ovens are operated to cremate the corpses until full calcination of the bones is achieved, but which is mainly an aesthetic aspect.
Civilian crematoria have to separate the remains of the individual corpses, whereas in Auschwitz the practice of multiple cremations was possible."
If cremation is defined as "dispose of (a dead person's body) by burning it to ashes, typically after a funeral ceremony", then it is not for "aesthetic" purposes. It is actually more efficient to load each body into a separate oven, as opposed to jamming them all into one oven, by the logic of the surface area required for the heat to interact with. Again, a crematorium oven is a crematorium oven, by definition. It is not apples to oranges, but you make it so by putting "civilian" in front of it. Again, if you have access to advanced technology, it is only logical to use it in order to advance your business. Why wait 2-3 hours, when you can speed it up down to your claims, as sourced by you.
"A lot has been said about cremation capacity and rates of the crematoria in Auschwitz, which allows to screen the testimonies for corroborating and converging features. Carlo Mattogno has compiled a list of 17 accounts in ATCFS, p. 319. Following the former Jewish Sonderkommando and SS men, the cremation capacity of all 4 crematoria in Birkenau was 4,000 - 10,000 corpses per day, which was achieved by loading each muffle opening with 2 - 5 corpses every 15 to 30 minutes."
Why not use this technology? Why assume that "civilian ovens" have not caught up to these rates? It is purely to maintain an arbitrary narrative, try and put your bias aside and look at things objectively. What reasoning do modern "civilian" ovens have for using inferior technology? Why have "civilian" ovens not, at the very least, advanced to meet the rates the Germans had eighty years ago? Technological advancements are advancing on an exponential curve, would it not follow that, if the advanced tech existed, a business would use it? Why claim that they are not the same thing, when you are not helping the comparison by adding "civilian" in front of the cremation oven? It is more logical to claim that WW2 "industrial" ovens are closer to modern "civilian" ovens (also claiming that modern "industrial" ovens are even more efficient, at almost phenomenal rates. Go out fora coffee while a loved one is getting turned to ash), than to assume that the tech has not evolved whatsoever. What did the WW2 "civilian" ovens look like? Did they take days to cremate a body? It just doesn't make sense. Your figures are around the same of those put forth by the Jewish virtual library, too. Even a bit more generous.

Nathan said...

-You just whine about your dislike of the truth.-

Bold words from a piece of shit who has no evidence to refute the actual capacities stated by the people who actually built the Auschwitz Crematoria.

These are the figures by topf and sohne when they built the crematoria. These are facts.

http://www.topfundsoehne.de/media_de/abb_062.html

Negroid said...

The funny part is that I actually cited my Jewish source, which is in connection with all the others. It was Jewish Virtual Library. It even left space for higher rates (when it stated 'German authorities claim higher body counts').
If you can't bother to read my post, you show your level of rational thinking.
Another interesting note: you reminisce and cry over Jews being ostracized by being quoted as the "out group", yet you demonize your opposition with ad-homs like 'deniers'. The definition is valid, but when you just say the word and sigh your opposition away ('ugh, I told you I disagree and you are still holding your values! Wow, you xxxxxxxx'), then it becomes an ad-hom non argument.

Nathan said...

-Then by your own admission, you are alter the death toll by some significant margin, as gassing/cremation has always been shilled the most to the status quo. -

Again, no one has claimed that most victims died by gassing. Negroid himself spammed the following:
-it states: The difference between the total of the victims of the gassings cited in the above mentioned composition and the number of victims of the operation groups and the total of roughly 6 million victims of the Nazi persecution of the Jews results from the fact that a very high percentage of the victims have lost their lives through indirect extermination actions such as the method "destruction through work," bad treatment, under nourishment, epidemics, exhaustion during forced transportations etc-

Negroid is the only one repeating the denier straw man that most victims were gassed. He denies saying this, and then he constantly says it. He's a retard.

There's nothing "impossible" about the cremation figures. They are documented by the people who designed and built the crematoria, as were the methods used. Negroid's "logical" evidence is a non sequitur. No one cares what Negroid thinks "Modern companies" would do. The only thing that matters is what the German perpetrators are documented to have done.

Nathan said...

-then why do modern crematorium ovens not use (and expand) upon this technology? That is the logical conclusion, why not use their technology?-
As I've said, this is a non sequitur. Given the fact that the capacities of World War II era crematories are documented, what modern companies do or do not do is irrelevant and has no bearing on their existence. That said, why should they need crematorias with similar capacities to WWII era ones? Their business appears to be stable, and there's no large demand for their services, with viable alternatives (Burial) available. The market doesn't appear to be that big. There's no need for them to waste R&D and resources when there's no demand for them and their current methods are sufficient.

So again, Negroid's an idiot. His "method" is personal incredulity and a non sequitur that ignores the actual evidence, and he has no grasp of context or the actual business situation that he cites in his "logic". He's an idiot.

Nathan said...

Somewhat relevant.

http://www.china.org.cn/china/2015-04/04/content_35243460.htm
-
Of the 9.77 million Chinese who died in 2014, 4.46 million, or 45.6 percent, were cremated, the Ministry of Civil Affairs (MCA) announced on Saturday-
Given the fact that the Chinese are having no obvious difficulties in cremating 4.5 million dead in one year, disposing of 1.5 million Auschwitz dead (1/3)in roughly two years is completely plausible. Negroid's incredulity is clearly based on a false premise. What modern companies do or don't do is irrelevant, but by the look of things they're doing an even better job of disposing of bodies than the Germans did.

Nathan said...

Negroid's "Jewish sources" are actually from the construction/design documents of Topf and Son, as quoted on their website. They're not "impossible" no matter how Negroid insists they are. The Crematorium's designers built the Kremas with these capacities in mind. They're experts, and their word trumps Negroid's horseshit any day.

Negroid's "reasoning" has been shown to be a non sequitur. Whatever modern companies do or don't do has no bearing on the existence of crematories with documented abd designed capacities. He's putting the cart before the horse and making a baseless and irrelevant assumption to "prove" his point. The only thing that matters is the evidence, and the evidence indicates that these were the capacities. In addition to being a non sequitur, Negroid's horseshit is a classic example of the argument from ignorance= I don't know about something, therefore it doesn't exist. Reality doesn't work that way. Not knowing about something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. This just shows that Negroid doesn't know Jack shit about the Holocaust or the evidence for it. See how he insists that the majority of victims died "by gassing" when several people and the Jewish virtual library have explicitly shown the opposite.
Fuck Negroid

Negroid said...

"a very high percentage of the victims have lost their lives through indirect extermination actions"
Then what is all the fuss about the Holocaust? This has happened to every other group of people on Earth. Everybody has been enslaved, everybody has been malnourished/mistreated as a POW. The question arises, why are blacks the only ones allowed to whine about slavery, but the Arab slave trade is never mentioned? Or the Mongolian conquests, they butchered millions (which is proportionally a monstrous percentage of the population of nations like China). Yadda yadda, a bunch of other examples. None of them really hold a candle to the Holocaust, and this is because they do not receive nearly enough coverage; that is, the status quo is, for the most part, unaware of them. Why are the Jews always the "professional victims"? There is no outrage among non-Armenian when you question the Armenian genocide, but to gentiles, it is a cardinal sin. Perhaps it is because they love to virtue-signal, and Jews can't say no to being victims.
"There's nothing "impossible" about the cremation figures"
Why do modern cremation ovens pale in comparison?
"No one cares what Negroid thinks "Modern companies" would do."
So the logical behaviour of a rational agent (in this case, a company) is irrelevant? They wish to maximize profits, and quicker cremation times=better business model. It's common sense. So if this technology is over half a century old, why not maximize upon it? That means that they are bound by the engineering feats of today. Again, Germans must have had a time machine to the future!
"As I've said, this is a non sequitur."
Comparing cremation ovens to their competitiveness in the market is a non-sequitur, when discussing cremation rate times? Not an argument.
"Their business appears to be stable, and there's no large demand for their services, with viable alternatives (Burial) available. "
This defeats your point, it is all the more reason for them to make their business bigger, better, and FASTER to compete. Make it more alluring. hey folks, we'll vaporize your loved ones with the flick of a switch!
"So again, Negroid's an idiot. His "method" is personal incredulity and a non sequitur that ignores the actual evidence, and he has no grasp of context or the actual business situation that he cites in his "logic". He's an idiot."
lol, I think you are incapable of forming an actual argument.
"Of the 9.77 million Chinese who died in 2014, 4.46 million, or 45.6 percent, were cremated, the Ministry of Civil Affairs (MCA) announced on Saturday"

Negroid said...

This does not elaborate upon how many ovens were used, or their rates. This is not sufficient evidence. There are images of German soldiers (allegedly) being shown the gassings/cremation (or just looking shocked), and they are surprised. The Allies didn't know if it until the liberation. This infers that it was done in secret (as you prove by using euphemisms as proof; makes for a great movie plot, though!). China makes this no secret. They can make as many cremation ovens as they wish. Again, this does nothing to elaborate upon how many ovens are at play. I'll take a bet and say that it would be many MANY more ovens than the Third Reich used.
"Negroid's "Jewish sources" are actually from the construction/design documents of Topf and Son, as quoted on their website."
You just validated my figures. Thank you!
"hey're not "impossible" no matter how Negroid insists they are."
Still, not an argument.
"Negroid's "reasoning" has been shown to be a non sequitur."
By the rational mind of 'Nathan', no less. That's about as worthy a judgement as a verdict given at the Nuremberg trials!
"Negroid's horseshit is a classic example of the argument from ignorance= I don't know about something, therefore it doesn't exist."
That which can be asserted without evidence can be denied without evidence. Sorry, I don't buy into your conspiracy theories.
"See how he insists that the majority of victims died "by gassing" when several people and the Jewish virtual library have explicitly shown the opposite."
So which is it: Jews are just another group that got beaten around for a while (nothing to wave a stick at, it happens to everybody), or Jews are the victims of a bizarre method of execution (gassing/cremation) which killed at least one million (in Auschwitz, at least) that deserves more coverage because of the methodology/bizarre nature.
Again, you have to assume (from the same source you validated just above) that there are 100 ovens working around the clock to get even close to the figures that have to be met.
Common sense would have it that modern ovens should improve beyond their predecessors. In China, where tech is becoming slimmer, more efficient, faster, and more powerful, you expect us to believe that this one thing is stuck eighty years in the past? Argument for special pleading is not an argument. The ovens today cannot meet those figures that the Third Reich could eighty years ago. I did the math based off of sources posters from the other side agree with. It takes less time to cremate a human (I got 15 minutes with some of the figures, going off of ten ovens working around the clock/without malfunction) than it does to cremate a cat with our modern era technology? (http://www.cremationresource.org/pets/pet-cremation-faq.html)
The numbers just don't add up. The cremation process could not account for the dead bodies. If they were that inefficient, why kill at least one million people if you cannot even cremate them? The bodies would pile up to the ceiling, fill up every ditch, and load up every single car. One million is a massive figure, and the bodies couldn't decompose into nothingness within a few years. The narratives just don't add up.

Nathan said...

One more time.


Negroid's "Jewish sources" are actually from the construction/design documents of Topf and Son, as quoted on their website. They're not "impossible" no matter how Negroid insists they are. The Crematorium's designers built the Kremas with these capacities in mind. They're experts, and their word trumps Negroid's horseshit any day. Negroid's non sequiturs and appeals to ignorance are irrelevant.

Fuck Negroid.

Nathan said...

-That which can be asserted without evidence can be denied without evidence.-

The construction document provided by Topf and Sohn is evidence. Given the fact that it was prepared by the people who designed the Kremas, they can be taken as fact and is the only relevant evidence. Negroid's arguments from ignorance are irrelevant
www.topfundsoehne.de/media_de/abb_062.html

-Then what is all the fuss about the Holocaust? -

Because the piece of shit (Negroid) introduced a straw man claim (that all victims of the Holocaust were gassed). His straw man has been called out, and he has no answer, so he's reduced to gibberish.

Fuck Negroid

Nathan said...

rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

-The argument from ignorance (or argumentum ad ignorantiam and negative proof) is a logical fallacy that claims the truth of a premise is based on the fact that it has not been proven false, or that a premise is false because it has not been proven true. This is often phrased as "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".-

-Another form that this fallacy can take is the form that of an argument from incredulity (also known as argument from personal belief or argument from personal conviction) which is that one's personal incredulity or credulity towards a premise is a logical reason for acceptance or rejection. -

These two statements sum up Negroid's horseshit. What modern businesses do or don't do has no bearing on the existence or functionality of WWII crematoriums, when there are documents from the people who built them telling us exactly what they're capable of. It is this evidence that Negroid has to tackle, instead of his irrelevant speculations.

fuck Negroid

Nathan said...

-Again, you have to assume (from the same source you validated just above) that there are 100 ovens working around the clock to get even close to the figures that have to be met. -

No one has to "assume" anything. All one has to do is accept the evidence provided by the company that built and designed the ovens. They designed the ovens to meet the capacity they provided, so their word can be taken by itself as opposed to Negroid's irrelevant incredulity.

Nathan said...

-The numbers just don't add up. The cremation process could not account for the dead bodies. If they were that inefficient, why kill at least one million people if you cannot even cremate them? The bodies would pile up to the ceiling, fill up every ditch, and load up every single car. One million is a massive figure, and the bodies couldn't decompose into nothingness within a few years. The narratives just don't add up.-
Argument from incredulity. Hans and I've addressed this earlier, and Negroid is too full of shit to factor in the actual situation.

"And roughly only half of that (1.5) were killed at Auschwitz, where there were Kremas. Even then, not all bodies were disposed of via Crematorium; open air cremations were used as well. The construction docs let us know what the capacities were and show that even without the open air cremations, there was no problem disposing of the bodies. "Negroid" is a worthless piece of shit"

The open air cremations are proven by ground and air photos. And traces of burned human remains were found in the 1960s. These plus the documents are an independent convergence of evidence all pointing to the fact of Cremation. This is what matters, not Negroid's childish horseshit. Which is less than evidence.

Fuck Negroid. For all his blethering about ignoring "ad homs", he sure likes to "respond" by repeating himself, cherry picking quotes and ignoring the evidence. Yeah, Fuck Negroid

Gabi said...

Negroid, as you seem to like yhe JVL so much, here's an articale that explains what is "All that fuss about the holocaust" and how does it differ from the Armenian or Congolese genocides, or even the Holodomor:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/What_makes_the_Holocaust_unique.html

Nathan said...

I don't agree with the whole "uniqueness" idea. As far as I know, the whole point of Holocaust and Genocide studies is that the Holocaust is not unique, and in fact data and trends from it can be used to interpret mass violence and other genocides. Nick Terry might agree.

That said, I would say that the "fuss" about the Holocaust is that the antisemitism that led to it was built on lies. Simply put, Jews did nothing wrong to "deserve" what happened to them. End of story. This is also true for Holocaust denial. The evidence for it is overwhelming, and the piece of shit in this thread (like other Deniers) has nothing but lies.

Nathan said...

In addition to the Construction document from Topf and Son, Hans has an excellent list of primary sources talking about Cremation rates in German concentration camps. These documents have been quoted (and spun) by no less than Carlo Mattogno, the "master" Holocaust denier.


holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.de/2014/10/rebuttal-of-mattogno-on-auschwitz-part.html?m=1

Fuck Negroid. No one gives a shit about his incredulity.

-For 28 June 1943, a draft was prepared in the construction office Auschwitz according to which the cremation rate of the Topf two-muffle oven was 26 min per corpse and that of the three- and eight muffle oven 15 min per corpse (Schüle, Industrie und Holocaust, p. 460, see also here).

List of cremations from Theresienstadt between 3 October to 15 November 1943 according to which the cremation time was less than 35 min in 72% cases (Mattogno, ATCFS, p. 279)-

Nathan said...

In addition to being an appeal to incredulity and ignorance, Negroid's simple minded bullshit is an example of the appeal to negative consequences

rationalwiki.org/wiki/Appeal_to_consequences

-The argument takes this form:
If A is true then it implies, causes, or creates, B.
B is, either subjectively or objectively, bad, immoral, or undesirable.
Therefore, A is false.-
If German crematoria are true, then modern businesses are "idiots" for not adopting their "technology". Therefore German crematoria are not true. Or rather, therefore Negroid is a fucking idiot. The utility of a belief is independent of its truth value.

This is an appeal to emotion, rather than evidence. The fact is that the people who designed these Crematoria documented their capabilities and techniques. These are the facts in evidence. Negroid's gibberish is irrelevant.

Fuck Negroid

Gabi said...

Jews did not do anything wrong? Off course they did!!!1 They controlled the banks!!!1 And they were communists!!!1 Also Jews are all gay or pedophiles!!!!1 And the love playing the victim so they could weaken white males! Muh ZOG! Muh Talmud!!!

J Kelly said...

"Sorry, I don't buy into your conspiracy theories."

😂

That's funny, coming from a denier.

Sergey Romanov said...

"Not an argument. Try again. See how far it gets you, chasing smoke and mirrors and telling people to "go back to school" when they put your fallacious claims up for scrutinizing. "

Actually you've been shown not to know the basics with your claim about 6000000 gassed Jews. So yeah, your knowledge is not even at the school level. Which means you're not worthy of further engagement.

Go away, read some actual historical research, then come back in few years and we might talk.

Sergey Romanov said...

BTW, I'm gonna be deleting this moron's further comments as spam. Don't bother to reply further.

Sergey Romanov said...

"you would notice that I left an open space"

Oh don't make me laugh, moron, no authority on history has ever spoken of the 6000000 gassed Jews, it hasn't ever been a credible option, so even merely mentioning it as such is disqualifying, much less representing it as the main claim (followed by some lame hedging) like you've done.

You've shown you didn't even care to read up on the very basics of what you're trying to dispute. You show no (intellectual) respect, so you won't be shown any in return.

Sergey Romanov said...

BTW, the moron doesn't even read his denier gurus:

"(cremating bodies at 30-60 minutes is a phenomenal rate, but it is not corroborated by modern cases of crematorium ovens"

Of course, even Mattogno concedes that the rate of 35 minutes per body was achieved in the Terezin ovens:

"From a sample of 717 cremations carried out in those ovens over 41
days of activity between October 3 and November 15, 1943, we may
note the following: The average duration of the cremations was 36 minutes.
For the 682 cremations where the duration is indicated, a full 491
or some 72% took 35 minutes or less, 148 or 22% lasted between 40
and 45 minutes, 42 took 50 to 60 minutes and 1 more than 60 minutes.
To save fuel, the cremations were done in one oven at a time which thus
remained always hot. After so many cremations, another oven was used
and so on in a cyclical manner. "

(ATCFS, p. 279)

Gabi said...

" but this is what the status quo believes in: the entire bit is that "six million were gassed"".

Only common folk and simpletons would tell you. The sane people who think that Stalin was a russian. You base your claims on the words of 12 year old and other people who don't know history.

Gabi said...

"but Jews are God's chosen people!!!".

Bravo. With that "hilarious" and "edgy" statement, you'vr showed your true identity
You've hidden ot well in previous comments, but now you took down your mask: nothing bit a stormscum. I bet you jerk-off fo Sinead "Goyim Goddess" McCarthy everyday.

Gabi said...

Also I still don't get why you were willing to admit that roughly 4 million Jews were murdered via other methods.
This is just another case of people dumbing-down the holocaust into a number-plan-chambers story, and nothing more. StatMech has a great post about it:
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=25685#p468714

Gabi said...

Are you stupid or something?

My quote:
I still don't get why you were *willing* to admit that roughly 4 million Jews were murdered via other methods."

You:

quote me directly where I state that NO OTHER JEWS DIED BY OTHER METHODS

Can't even tell "willing" from "unwilling". And I thought my english is bad...

Gabi said...

Goyim Goddess is not a porn site... you seriously don't know her?
I thought all alt-right holocaust deniers* know her. My mistake I guess.
(although, again, I don't see the point in being a denier when you admit that 4 million Jews were in fact murdered by other methods)

Gabi said...

Sergey, deleting him is not a goid idea. We know how much deniers love to play the victim, censoring them makes them to look like martyrs, which exactly what they want most.

Gabi said...

"goid idea". Haha. Meant "Good".
(No Negroid, "Goy" is bot the Hebrew word for "cattle")

Gabi said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Gabi said...

At least five times you said "I did'nt claim that the other dour milion were not murdered". I conculded therfore that you agree that four million Jews were murdered." Pot calling the kettle black, it's been eighty years and the Jews still won't stop whining".It's not a pot calling the kettle black, its using the same language and arguments that you use on us - against you!Also - 100 years and the Armenians are stil compaining. 90 years and the Catalans are still complaining. 90 years and the Ukraians ate still complaining about the Holodomor.Oh, and ofcourse - 2,000 years and Christians still complain about how we supposadly killed Jesus.It seems that in your eyes, acknowlandging past horrors is okay, unless you're a Jew.

By the way, can you proof behind any doubt that there a secret shadow goverment of eliye Jews who attempt to control and weaken the whites?

Gabi said...

" Where are these Ukrainians complaining?"
A. Holodomor denial is illegal in Ukraine
B. What about all these alt-righters who cry about how Jewish Bolsheviks killed 30 million Ukranians? 90 years and they are still whining.

"Or the Armenians?"
System of a Down.
Also the Armenian genocide is still talked about these days. Not un the same level as the holocaust, but still, a lot. Maybe not where you live...

Your Jesus quote - wait, so you take the bible as reliable source? By thst logic, you're supposed to agree thst Jees ARE yhe chosen people.

Last patagraph - don't try bullshiting us. I talked with to many of your kind to know exactly how you think. You said thst Jews are puppet masters who view gentiles as canon fodder. I'm sure you can finf a quote where a certain rabbi says such a thing, but the only thing that it'll prive is that some Jews are racist. Real shock.

Gabi said...

" Are you denying the Holodomor by masking the identity of the perpetrators?"
Yoguda was indeed a Jew.

" The dichotomy between gentile/goyim and Jews is not held by simply one rabbi".
I did not say "one rabbi".

"Well, which is it? A lot or not on the same level? The Holocaust is talked about a lot, but not the Armenian genocide. Pick one, because you keep contradicting yourself."
Wow. You are such a kakhmolog. Let's put it in a language you'll understand: on a scale of 1-10, the Holocaust is talked about on a level 10. Armenian genocide is 8 or 9.

When I said "your people", I meant deniers. I don't care if you are a quarter Jew. In fact many of the most hurtful people to the Jewish nation were part Jew themselves, or straight up Jews who converted. Many soviet leaders wete ethnicly Jewish, but the USSR was one of the worst places for Jews to live in.

Gabi said...

You didn't ask for a source.
"On November 28, 2006, Ukraine's parliament, the Verkhovna Rada, passed a law recognizing the 1932–1933 Holodomor as an act of genocide against the Ukrainian people. The voting figures were as follows: supporting the bill were BYuT—118 deputies, NSNU—79 deputies, Socialists—30 deputies, 4 independent deputies, and the Party of Regions—2 deputies (200 deputies did not cast a vote). The Communist Party of Ukrainevoted against the bill. In all, 233 deputies supported the bill—more than the minimum of 226 votes required to pass it into law.[69][70]

" Be honest, can you name some of the individuals involved in the Armenian genocide,"

Off course I can. Ismail Enver, Ahmet Talaat and Mehmet Djemal. And even though I can't prove it - no, I did not use wikipedia.

You can't really telk the diffrence between "one rabbi" and "a certain rabbi"?

" Not only Yoguda, there were many Jews who were Bolsheviks, the movement was largely initiated by them".
I already se where you are going with this, so here's a link that will explain thing better than I can:
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=25117

Nathan said...

-
" Not only Yoguda, there were many Jews who were Bolsheviks, the movement was largely initiated by them".
I already se where you are going with this, so here's a link that will explain thing better than I can:
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=25117-

During Stalin's time and the Holodomor, only 5% of the Bolshevik Membership was Jewish. This was in 1924, and it only kept decreasing as time went on. In the 30s, Kaganovich was the only Politburo member left.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/1924_Chart_-_Conditions_in_Russia.png

The actual statistics of the Bolshevik party paint a different picture from a certain someone's rubbish. Jews were not the only minority that participated in the Soviet Union. The largest represented group was Russians, at 72%. Latvians, Lithuanians and Esthonians were over represented as well. 78 out of every 1000 Latvians were Bolshevik Party members, compared to only 7 out of 1000 Jews. The Cheka was dominated by Latvians. Most Eastern European Jews were poor and deeply religious, and in fact suffered heavily under Soviet Policies especially with regards to the latter. In fact, during the German invasion of Russia and the Holocaust, most Eastern European Jews took their chances and stayed: they remembered that the Germans treated them better in World War I compared to the Czar and the Bolsheviks. This is bullshit. Most Jews were not communists and most communists were not Jews.

Yagoda was just one of the perpetrators in the Holodomor. The main perpetrator, the one who actually cracked down on the farmers, was Stanislav Redens, A Latvian. The one who oversaw the collectivization was Stanislav Kosior, a Pole. The one in charge of seizing Grain during the Holodomor was Pavel Potyshev, A Russian. Finally, one can't ignore the one who oversaw the whole thing: Stalin, A Georgian who was not Jewish. Saying that Jews "dominated" the USSR because a handful of Jews had high ranking positions is no different from Saying that Black People dominate the USA because for the last 8 years, the POTUS was a Black Man.

Judeo Bolshevism never happened.

Nathan said...
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Nathan said...

The Soviet Union's actual Policies in the Stalin Area also do not reflect or indicate any such "Jewish Domination". The Soviet Union cracked down on both the Jewish Religion and Jewish cultural identity. They killed Rabbis and converted synagogues into Political and Newspaper offices. They shut down Yiddish Language schools. They persecuted Zionism as "Bourgeois nationalism" and cracked down on the Bund seeing it as a rival socialist group. Most famously, they arrested Menachem Begin and tortured him for two years. They supported the Arabs in the 1937 Palestine riots. Polish Jews who fled the German invasion of Russia were deported to the Gulags on Stalin's personal orders.

Finally, one cannot discuss so called "Judeo Bolshevism" without addressing the Soviet Union's policy regarding the Holocaust. I've mentioned this elsewhere: The USSR's official Policy after the War was "do not divide the dead", to hide, and not exaggerate or exploit the disproportionate amount of Jewish deaths at the hands of the Nazis. This policy is best exemplified by the Jager report, the treatment of the black book of Russian Jewry, and the USSR's handling of the Babi Yar massacre, among other things. The Jager report explicitly describes the Killing of Jews for no reason other than their being Jewish, and the objective to make Lithuania "free of Jews". It was captured by the Soviets, but because it contradicted their narrative - that "all" Soviet Nationalities were targeted equally - they buried it in the Soviet archives and did not release it until the late 50s/early sixties. The Soviet Jewish Anti Fascist committee prepared the black book of Russian Jewry to specifically document the anti Jewish Nature of German killings, so Stalin Personally had most of them arrested (Grossman) or killed (Ehrenburg) and had the black book's plate removed from circulation, because it contradicted the narrative Stalin wanted. As for Babi Yar, the official extraordinary commission reports for that massacre removed every mention of the Victims being Jews, and instead disguised the nature and intent of the killings by editing references to Jews to "peaceful Soviet Citizens", changing the reality of an anti Jewish massacre into a narrative of capitalist fascists killing communists. Both Stalin and Kruschev banned any sort of Jewish commemoration for the massacre, and in fact cracked down on attempts by Jews to do the same. Kruschev tried and failed to turn the massacre site first into a municipal sports center and then a garbage dump. There's no way a nation "ruled by Jews" would defile the site of a large anti Jewish massacre this way. The reason is simple: Judeo Bolshevism never happened.

There's more information in that excellent thread Gabi linked to. I just wanted to share the highlights. Anyone interested in an honest discussion about the fantasy of "Judeo Bolshevism" as opposed to a certain someone's gibberish is certainly welcome.

Sergey Romanov said...

OK, I see the moron didn't stop spamming, moreover he is simply repeating the arguments that have been debunked even by deniers like Mattogno.

So from this moment on not only the moron's comments will be deleted but also of those responding to him (and thus encouraging him to respond).

Sergey Romanov said...

> so Stalin Personally had most of them arrested (Grossman) or killed (Ehrenburg)

Please, be careful with the details. Neither Grossman nor Ehrenburg were arrested or killed.

Sergey Romanov said...

A couple of sources relevant to the discussion of the "Judeo-Bolshevik" myth:

1. The partial ethnic composition of the leading organs of the Bolshevik/Communist party (not without several mistakes):

http://holocaust.skeptik.net/misc/party.htm

2. The ethnic composition of the NKVD leadership from 1934 to 1941:

http://www.memo.ru/history/nkvd/kto/stattab4.htm

3. An article on the ethnic composition of Cheka-OGPU until 1924:

http://yroslav1985.livejournal.com/84767.html

Two points emerge from these stats:

a) It is true that the percentages of ethnic Jews in these various leading bodies were *at times* significantly larger than the proportion of the Jews among the general Soviet population (e.g. in early 1937 38% of the NKVD leaders were ethnically Jewish; for a time in 1921 60% of the members of the highest organ - Politbyuro - were Jewish). Jews being at times so "visible" in the leading roles gave the start to the myth of "Judeo-Bolshevism".

This disproportionality was a *temporary* phenomenon. For example, it follows from the 2nd and 3rd articles that the numbers of leading Chekist figures who were Jewish was significantly lower in 1917-1924 than it was in the next decade.

b) Disproportionality does not equal *domination* (being > 50%). Moreover, the Soviet dictators who had the last word about policy were always non-Jewish (Lenin, Stalin and so on).

It follows from the first article that most of the time the Politbyuro was dominated by non-Jews. And Jews never dominated proportionally among the NKVD leadership.

The myth of Judeo-Bolshevism requires that Jews (a) dominate in the leading roles over non-Jews percentage-wise (b) for a significant period of time. This never happened.

Sergey Romanov said...

The moron should stop spamming. He has been permanently banned.

Sergey Romanov said...

BTW, in his deleted postings the moron tried to push the idea that just because Lenin had some Jewish ancestry, that made him fully Jewish. Of course by that logic he was also fully Swedish, fully German, and/or fully Chuvash.

This misses the point of ethnicity entirely. There is actually no way to define ethnicity precisely. When we know that a person's parents belonged to ethnicity A and the person identifies as A, there is no problem, the person is A. Of course there are also many cases which are not clear-cut. Definition of ethnicity has to do with ancestry, cultural upbringing, self-identification and sometimes with an outside perspective too. There are no general rules.

Lenin had some Jewish ancestry (baptized Jewish grandfather). He never identified as a Jew (he self-identified as a Russian), he was not brought up as a Jew (he was culturally Russian). Ergo he was not Jewish. To think otherwise is basically to repeat the Nazi theories.

Sergey Romanov said...

And the deleted comment once again showed why the moron is banned permanently. He first claimed Lenin was Jewish as an objective fact, and when debunked simply repeats his claim, with some dithering and hedging. That Lenin was not Jewish goes right over his empty head. Such zombies are not welcome here.

Reactionary said...

So Sergey and Nathan, have you read this book?:

"Secret Behind Communism The Ethnic Origins of the Russian Revolution and the Greatest Holocaust the History of Mankind" by David Duke?:

https://www.amazon.com/Communism-Origins-Revolution-Greatest-Holocaust/dp/1892796015

Opinions about it?

About the book:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrieUdYe_e8


People like, anti-nazi Winston Churchill and nobel prize winner Aleksandr Solzjenitsyn, saying the same thing, that jews was overrepresented in communism and had a leading role.

Not only in Soviet Russia, but in country after country in Europe and the United States. Although the governments of Britain and the United States examined it and concluded that it was true. So it can not be just any Nazi fabrication.

To day jews have a leading role behind massimigration and the culture war against white Europeans, they admit it themself, no conspiracy theory:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFE0qAiofMQ

If Jewish leaders fear another Holocaust. My advice to them is: Stop committing aggression against our people! Otherwise, maybe a new Holocaust the jews will face in the future, so for the Jews' best and our best, they should stop this madness.

As both a nationalist and a humanist, I do not wanr to see my people suffer and perish, and I do not want innocent Jews to suffer either.

Time to learn lessons from the history, so that it doesn't repeat itself.

Sergey Romanov said...

I don't have much to add to what I wrote above on overrepresentation (based on actual sources, not some mewling by a Holocaust-denying ex-Klansman).

Gabi said...

Holy crap Reactionary, not this again.

"The Jews are responsible for the Muslim immmigration to Europe" is one of the stupidest theories in existance, because it ignores the fact the Muslim immigration hurts Jews more than any other group.

In the last few years, everytime Jews in Europe are hurt in any sort of way, it's always muslims who do it. I actually love how people claim that the 2015 Paris attacks were planned by the Jews (as you can see in the comments of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPgrDrdQKlg) even though half of it took place on a Kosher supermarket, where all the victims were Jewish. Also, what about that one time when muslims stabbed Jewish students in Toulouse? Hundredes of Jews flee France for the safety of Israel every year, it's the biggest immigration wave since the 1.2 Jews who escaped the USSR in 1990s (hmmm, why did they want to flee if the USSR was controlled by Jews and favored them?). Try asking the average Israeli if he thinks Muslim immigration to Europe is a good thing - you'll be surprised by the answers.

The video you showed proved absolutly nothing other than the fact that there are indeed some leftist Jews who support Muslim immigration and mult-culturlism. My guess is that the woman from the video is either an atheist or at least a reformist Jews (AKA people who call themselves Jews even though they have nothing to do with Judaism) - like any other leftist Jew.

I actually saw people claiming that at this very moment Jews are commiting a genocide against white Europeans. One guy whom I argued was Danish, and he said that Jews in his country are those who are responsible for the low birth rates among whites.