Friday, May 13, 2016

Note on Involvement of OSS in Locating Gas Van Documents PS-501

The following information is taken from pages 179-182 of this work by Michael Salter and concerns the four documents constituting Nuremberg exhibit PS-501, discussed in this series by Hans. The first involvement of the OSS was to locate the documents among those held by British intelligence in London. A cable from Donovan to Jackson dated June 1, 1945, detailed the role of Colonel Amen in obtaining "documents (originals) which contain details of gas by "death van" fitted out by that purpose" [Salter p.180, citing cable 18124, 1/6/45, Jackson Papers, Box 101, Reel 7, my emphasis]. These were placed in a dossier prepared by OSS X-2 branch and eventually picked up by Whitney Harris, who discusses here (pp.198-199) how he used them in the interrogation of Ohlendorf while preparing for the case against Kaltenbrunner. The documents were also authenticated by Rauff in Ancona, as Hans shows here. Although the Becker-Rauff document became part of PS-501, it was originally filed by the OSS as Feldpostnummer S2704 / SECRET. Rauff gave a further very detailed confirmation of the document in Chile in 1972, shown here.

On the whining of Weckert and others about the origins of these documents, I refer readers to the quote by Zimmerman in Roberto's post here.

68 comments:

bhigr said...

You guys have probably noticed that Mattogno et al have published a new book called "Curated Lies—The Auschwitz Museum’s Misrepresentations, Distortions and Deceptions". A power point presentation of the book and an interview with Dr. James Fetzer have also been published. Are you going to tacitly agree to their conclusions or publish a detailed refutation?

bhigr said...

By the way, the book "healthcare at Auschwitz" by Carlo Mattogno has also been published in the mean time, in German! Check it out and tell me what you think.

Dass Prussian said...

Why does Rudolf associate himself with conspiracy theorists such as Uncle James H Fester ? It really does create credibility issues, even if he doesn't have much remaining anyway !

I watched all this presentation and found Rudolf quite calm and almost 'normal' in the way he came across, but my attention kept being diverted to Fester and his caveman like outbursts and interruptions. He fits the stereotypical conspiracy loon image perfectly, ie agitated, shouty and full of shit. He reminded me of Friedrich Berg after skipping medication time at the cranks clinic.

As for the contents of the book, looks like it's just going over old ground. My advice for the Holocaust Handbook Team is to avoid any future publishing until they can offer credible evidence that supports the transit or labour camp theory. It's one thing picking faults with a museums guide book, but the skills required for producing a credible rewriting of history appear to consistently non existent.

J Kelly said...

I recently dealt with Berg on-line.
Frankly, the man is insane. The vile, racist BS he spouted out, not just towards Jews, convinced me of this.
He challenged me to a radio debate. I told him there was no way I was going to associate myself with him, nor would I allow him to edit my words. This caused him to degenerate into babbling racist psycho-babble.
I'm against Holocaust denial laws but for him I would make an exception.

Jonathan Harrison said...

"Are you going to tacitly agree to their conclusions or publish a detailed refutation?"

You miss c) ignore them if they just repeat stuff that's been refuted many times here and elsewhere

d) ignore them if other tasks take precedence

e) ignore them until Mattogno addresses various past article blog articles on here that he's thus far ignored

Sergey Romanov said...

How about Mattogno addressing his own misrepresentations, distortions and deceptions, as demonstrated in numerous posts here?

Sergey Romanov said...

Berg is a poisonous neo-Nazi. Moreover, he's a sore loser, because the work of his life - disproving the diesel gas chambers - turned out to be irrelevant - there indeed were no diesel gas chambers, the ones that used exhaust gases (whether stationary or mobile) ran on petrol, as has been amply demonstrated. Berg has wasted his life on a lie. ROFL.

J Kelly said...

I tried to help the crazy old fellow out by pointing out that those directly utilizing the gas vans and engines said they were petrol engines, not diesel. His only reply was that the Soviets said the engines were Diesel. I pointed out the contradiction of believing everything the Soviets said about the gas vans....after all, deniers lay it on thick about how the Soviets lied about everything, Katyn being the favorite exhibit...this only causes more degenerate racist statements.
I gave up. Life is too short. I also made the resolution not to go back to that particular blog again.

Andrew E. Mathis said...

@bgihr

Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

Jeff said...

"Berg has wasted his life on a lie. ROFL."

He has turned to emotional eating as an outlet. Cops fingers are not off limits.

J Kelly said...

ūüėā
I did ask him if he had bit any more cops lately.
For some reason he declined to comment on this.
I also told him that a denier once described his temper tantrums as "Bergian."
Didn't have anything to say about that, either.

bhigr said...

Hmm, Berg, Diesel, nothing substantial. This appears to be semi rational though:


"As for the contents of the book, looks like it's just going over old ground. My advice for the Holocaust Handbook Team is to avoid any future publishing until they can offer credible evidence that supports the transit or labour camp theory. It's one thing picking faults with a museums guide book, but the skills required for producing a credible rewriting of history appear to consistently non existent."

The book discusses around 70 documents, which the Auschwitz museum claims to have discovered for the first time. So how can this be old ground? How can he claim that no evidence exists that support the theory of Auschwitz being a labor camp? Buna doesn't ring a bell? Even Orthodox history claims that Auschwitz was a Work camp, but additionally Auschwitz is supposed to have been an extermination camp!

Apparently the faults discovered by Mattogno are not disputed but confirmed.

bhigr said...

Nevertheless, I'll keep you guys informed. I found in Mattogno healthcare book the following information

"Am 4. September 1943 schrieb SS-Obersturmbannf√ľhrer Gerhard Maurer, Chef des Amtes DII des WVHA (Arbeitseinsatz der H√§ftlinge), an H√∂√ü den folgenden Brief (Berenstein 1960, S. 365): “Im KL Auschwitz sitzen zur Zeit rund 25.000 j√ľdische H√§ftlinge ein. Ich habe am 25.8.43 SS-Hauptsturmf√ľhrer Schwarz gesagt, da√ü ich die Zahl der voll arbeits- und einsatzf√§hig Juden wissen mu√ü, da ich beabsichtige , Juden vom KL abzuziehen, um sie bei R√ľstungsfertigungen im Reich einzusetzen. Am 26.8.43 habe ich dies durch FS noch einmal mitgeteilt. Nach dem dortigen FS vom 29.8.43 sind von den einsitzenden 25.000 Juden nur 3.581 arbeitsf√§hig. Diese sind aber restlos bei R√ľstungsvorhaben eingesetzt und k√∂nnen nicht abgegeben werden. Was machen die restlichen 21.500 Juden? Irgend etwas kann hier nicht stimmen! Ich bitte den Vorgang erneut zu √ľberpr√ľfen und mir zu berichten.”

Healthcare in an extermination camp does seem odd, doesn't it? Could you guys give me the Orthodox interpretation of this document? I thought every Jew unfit for work was immediately gassed? How come the camp contained so many Jews who couldn't work?

J Kelly said...

"The book discusses around 70 documents, which the Auschwitz museum claims to have discovered for the first time. So how can this be old ground? How can he claim that no evidence exists that support the theory of Auschwitz being a labor camp? Buna doesn't ring a bell? Even Orthodox history claims that Auschwitz was a Work camp, but additionally Auschwitz is supposed to have been an extermination camp!"

Auschwitz was a multipurpose camp. Deniers have a hard time grasping this fact.
The SS presided over a "camp empire." There were labor camps, concentration camps, camps to hold foreign workers, etc. In many ways Auschwitz stood at the apex of this camp system because it contained not only the major camps, Auschwitz I, II and III but also many satellite camps. Auschwitz was a concentration camp, a labor camp, a transit camp and a death camp. Birkenau itself started as a camp for Red Army POWs.
I'm glad the museum is releasing new documents. I hope they are translated and put on-line. As far as Mattagono goes I'm sure he'll attempt to distort these documents like always and wind up looking like an ass.
I simply don't have the patience anymore to read these so-called "Holocaust Handbooks."

bhigr said...

@kelly So we have actually found a point of agreement, since I wrote:

"Even Orthodox history claims that Auschwitz was a Work camp, but additionally Auschwitz is supposed to have been an extermination camp!"

Hence, the labor camp theory is not disputed by anybody.

J Kelly said...

"Healthcare in an extermination camp does seem odd, doesn't it?"

Auschwitz was not a pure extermination camp. This fits with the directives laid out by Himmler and Pohl in 1942 that stated the prisoners needed better rations and healthcare because the German war effort needed their labor. Casualty rates did decline across the concentration camp system in 1942.

"Could you guys give me the Orthodox interpretation of this document?"

I obviously misjudged you, bhigr. Only deniers use the words "Orthodox Interpretation."

"I thought every Jew unfit for work was immediately gassed?"

From the transports, yes. This was also the policy towards the so-called "Muslims," those inmates who were obviously dying of starvation, maltreatment and disease.

"How come the camp contained so many Jews who couldn't work?"

See above. Valuable Jews could be spared as long as they could do some work. Even the Reinhard Camps, pure extermination camps, allowed some of the valuable Jews to rest and recover when they were sick.
Also, by the Fall of 1944, Himmler changed the policy of automatically killing the Jews for a few reasons:
He saw this as a way to curry favor with the allies.
He saw the prisoners as a valuable source of labor.
He saw the prisoners as hostages.
Hope this helps.
At least you don't spout racist crap, bhigr. That stuff makes me sick.

bhigr said...


"See above. Valuable Jews could be spared as long as they could do some work. "

But, the document states that the majority of Jews in the camp couldn't work. Nevertheless they were spared!

J Kelly said...

So what?
This wasn't an all or nothing policy.
These remaining Jews were, to some degree, valuable (even then this wouldn't stop the gassing or execution of hopeless cases).
I did mention that in 1942 Pohl and Himmler made some effort to improve the conditions in the camps to take advantage of prisoner labor.
I'll tell you what, bhigr. Show me proof of where the Nazis sent the Jews if they didn't kill them. Not even Auschwitz could absorb the 1 million or so Jews sent there between 1942-1944. While you are at it figure out where the 1.5 million or so Jews sent to the Reinhard Camps between the Spring of 1942 to the Fall of 1943 went if the Germans didn't kill them.
When you can do that I'll listen. Until then this is just smoke and mirrors.
I now expect silence.

bhigr said...

So what? That's your response? These Jews were valuable? For what? Of 25000 Jewish inmates only 3581 were fit to work!

bhigr said...

"Show me proof of where the Nazis sent the Jews if they didn't kill them."

Didn't you admit yourself that Auschwitz was also a transit camp?

" Not even Auschwitz could absorb the 1 million or so Jews sent there between 1942-1944."

How many Jews could Auschwitz absorb? How do you know?

Frankly, you are trying to distract from the problem I posed, because you have no answer.

J Kelly said...

I'm not sure what else you want me to say.
I've told you that some effort was made in 1942 to improve the conditions in the camps with better rations and health care. Mortality rates did improve after this.
I did just think of this. Why is the presumption that most if not all of the sick Jews survived after this document was written? Perhaps with this realization most of those Jews were executed.
Do you have any proof that these Jews survived after the date of this document?
Oh, and bhigr? Still waiting on proof of where the Jews were sent.

Hans said...

bhigr,

when I'm done with Alvarez and if I'm then still motivated beating an almost clinically dead horse like Holocaust denial, I will likely also post on Mattogno's latest musing. So don't worry, but be patient. Thorough rebuttals are time consuming and I have to do this in my free time next to a a full time job.

Mattogno's other book on healtcare in Auschwitz is a big misinterpretation of German documents coupled with bizzarre arithemics as somebody put it. I read the Italian edition some years ago, but because of the focus first on Mattogno's Case of Sanit and now on Gas Vans I've lacked the time to prepare a comprehensive rebuttal - other than these points, which already show Mattogno's poor practice:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.de/2014/05/auschwitz-birkenau-selection-list-of-21.html

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.de/2015/01/rebuttal-of-mattogno-on-auschwitz-part.html

bhigr said...

You are being unreasonable, why should the Germans house over 22000 inmates who couldn't work if they had a policy of killing sick inmates? Why is the vast majority of inmates not fit to work if the Germans had a policy of killing sick inmates?

bhigr said...

Why should a government official ask for the number of healthy inmates at Auschwitz, if all sick inmates were killed by default?

J Kelly said...

"Show me proof of where the Nazis sent the Jews if they didn't kill them."

"Didn't you admit yourself that Auschwitz was also a transit camp?"

Sure. Some Jews were, in fact, transferred to other camps. Nobody disputes that. Those records exist. But it does not account for the majority of the Jews sent to Auschwitz.

" Not even Auschwitz could absorb the 1 million or so Jews sent there between 1942-1944."

"How many Jews could Auschwitz absorb? How do you know?"

Well, I know from the original records Himmler intended to hold 150,000 Soviet POWs in Birkenau, however, Birkenau never held that many Jews. I think the highest number reached for Birkenau was 21,000 (someone please correct me if I am wrong).

"Frankly, you are trying to distract from the problem I posed, because you have no answer."

I've given you several answers. No more show and tell on my part, now it's your turn.
Please provide proof of where the majority of the Jews went from the Reinhard Camps. I'll make this easy on you for Birkenau. Just show me where the majority of the Hungarian Jews went that the Germans deported in the Spring/Summer of 1944.
That should be easy, right? That's about 400,000 Jews deported to Auschwitz Birkenau during that time period.
Good hunting.

bhigr said...

"
Sure. Some Jews were, in fact, transferred to other camps. Nobody disputes that. Those records exist. But it does not account for the majority of the Jews sent to Auschwitz"

Well the prove your assertion! Even if this were true, how does this prove that the inmates were killed?

bhigr said...


"I've given you several answers. No more show and tell on my part, now it's your turn.
Please provide proof of where the majority of the Jews went from the Reinhard Camps."

O.K. you have provided no reasonable answer, therefore you no longer wish to talk about Auschwitz! I understand.

bhigr said...

Hans, I look forward to your response!

J Kelly said...

Actually your document provides a number for amount of Jews housed at Auschwitz, at least at the time the document was written. My apologies for not picking up on that.
Do you have any proof that the sick Jews listed in the report lived after this report was published?

J Kelly said...

It's called "accounting."

J Kelly said...

What do you mean, prove my assertion?
If 1,000,000 people go somewhere and disappear, what else can we assume?

bhigr said...

@kelly do you really believe that your response is convincing?

J Kelly said...

I can talk about Auschwitz all day.
However, right now I'm at work.
We'll continue this after I get off.

J Kelly said...

See above. We'll continue this later.

Sergey Romanov said...

"Healthcare in an extermination camp does seem odd, doesn't it?"

Only an ignoramus who doesn't know anything about Auschwitz would ask such a question. Figures.

Sergey Romanov said...

"Of 25000 Jewish inmates only 3581 were fit to work!"

You are assuming that Auschwitz was providing correct numbers to Maurer. Maurer, however, obviously didn't share your assumption.

Sergey Romanov said...

Here is the context.

Oranienburg Nr. 5294 26.8.43 1500=GR=. An den Kommandanten K.L. Auschwitz SS-Obersturmbannf√ľhrer Hoess. Betrifft: Abgabe von Judenhaeftlingen. Wie ich bereits am 25. ds. M. SS-Hauptsturmf√ľhrer Schwarz gesagt habe, benoetige ich baldigst die Zahl derjenigen juedischen H√§ftlinge die an andere KL abgegeben werden k√∂nnen. Es kommen nur voll arbeits- und einsatzfaehige Juden in Frage und zwar vornehmlich Westjuden.
Baldige Nachricht erwarte ich. Gez. Maurer [darunter Eingangsstempel des KZ Auschwitz, Datum: 26. Aug. 1943]

3143 28.8.43. Betreff: Abgabe von Juden-Häftlingen Bezug: DortFS v.26.8.43.
Nr.4294 Von den im KL Auschwitz einsitzenden Juden sind 446 deutsche, 700 franz√∂sische, 198 slowakische, 162 tschechische, 37 kroatische, 127 holl√§ndische, 184 belgische, 5 norwegische, 1722 griechische Juden arbeitsf√§hig und restlos bei den R√ľstungsbetrieben besch√§ftigt (und k√∂nnen nicht abgegeben werden.)
[Text in Klammern im Original durchgestrichen, d.V.] gez. Sell SS-Untersturmf√ľhrer

Note how Sell doesn't list any Polish Jews. He obviously interpreted Maurer's request in a very creative manner - whereas Maurer would have *preferred* "Westjuden" (without excluding "Ostjuden"), Sell did exclude Polish Jews as the most "eastern" of the "eastern Jews".

So just a little context helps to clarify what happened here. Idiotic hack Mattogno and his blind followers are exposed once again.

Nathan said...

You can't bring the dead back to life, but the sick can get better and return to an acceptable level of productivity. Any manager will tell you that retaining an experienced worker is always better in the long run than constantly training new people to replace the ones you've lost. That's why employers today keep new hires under a "bond"- you stay with us for x years and earn the money we invested in your training, or you pay us up front.

What Bhigr and so many idiots fail to grasp is that extermination and overwork were means to an end, and not ends in themselves. A Judenfrei Europe was the long term goal, economic gain - winning the war, company profit- was the short or immediate term goal. Short term labor demands and economic gain outweighed the long term goal of extermination. This led to a flexible selection policy that realized that allowing sick but experienced laborers to get back to their previous level of productivity was better than killing them off and starting from scratch. Or more productive than distributing the same heavy workload on a continuously shrinking labor pool. Therefore, hospitals in a dual purpose camp. Easy to understand for anyone who knows business or at least has common sense. Things that Liars Mattogno and Graf lack and that their followers are too thick to understand.

Sergey Romanov said...

Albeit it is clear that in this case it's most probably not about actual sick workers but rather about a) incomplete statistics (this is a fact), b) the Au. administration's desire not to give up any of their valuable workers to the outside (this is speculation, but a plausible one), but Nathan's point above is also very valid. Indeed, Maurer was very explicit: "nur voll arbeits- und einsatzfaehige". If then Schwarz et al. were greedy and didn't want to share their workers, they could pretend that those who had slight illnesses or were somewhat malnourished didn't fit Maurer's criteria. That would be reason number 3 for the false stats (in addition to bureaucratically creative misinterpretation of Maurer's request as well as outright lying to hide the real numbers).

bhigr said...

@nathan So the "flexible selection policy" means that the extermination program was suspended for the time being in favor of war production? This must have been in August 1943, when the gas chambers in 2 and 3 were operating at full capacity!

Please bear in mind that the vast majority of the jewish inmates were not capable of working!

bhigr said...

@Sergey There was no reason for him to hide the numbers, he could just state that all fit inmates were needed by Auschwitz, since this is what he said about the 3581 fit inmates that he actually reported.

Nathan said...

-Bhigr:@nathan So the "flexible selection policy" means that the extermination program was suspended for the time being in favor of war production? This must have been in August 1943, when the gas chambers in 2 and 3 were operating at full capacity!

Please bear in mind that the vast majority of the jewish inmates were not capable of working!


You're an illiterate moron. I explained the rationale behind the selection policy and your infantile bitching about "Hospitals in an extermination camp". Nothing more. I didn't say anything about the extermination program being suspended. In fact, the use of the term selection indicates that it's still there. Just that there was a lot more thought put in to who was "selected".

Just because they couldn't work now doesn't mean they couldn't work later. I'm not repeating my explanation about labor, which Bhigr wad too thick to understand.

Fuck off.

bhigr said...

@nathan you ain't gonna convince anybody by spouting insults! More than 20000 non fit Jewish inmates, that's some selection process, by jove!

Nathan said...

Sergey or anyone else, Bhigr is ignoring responses to his nonsense. He's repeating the same talking points even though they've been explained to him. I think this falls under trolling or spamming?

bhigr said...

Let me sum up the problem. If you are selecting inmates according to their capacity to work, then the vast majority of the selected inmates should be fit to work.However, the vast majority couldn't work. I see two explanations. 1 21500 were temporarily sick, 2. The SS officer Lied!

bhigr said...

I'm not ignoring anything and I'm not spamming. Stop hurling insults and false accusations in lieu of reasonable arguments. It doesn't reflect well on you!

Nicholas Terry said...

@bhigr,

Maurer's response does not indicate that there were in fact 25,000 unfit Jews in Auschwitz at the time, it merely shows that the response he received from the Auschwitz staff to a query created a misleading impression.

Firstly, the Auschwitz labour deployment branch identified only 'western' Jews who were male - Juden rather than Juedinnen - and ignored Polish male Jews, who made up a large proportion of the Jewish inmates of Auschwitz at this time.

Secondly, the Auschwitz labour deployment branch essentially provided only the number of 'western' Jews working in armaments rather than working on camp construction, in agriculture, etc.

Thirdly, the actual number of all male prisoners - Jewish and non-Jewish - in Auschwitz as of 4 Novenber 1943, i.e. after the date sampled to produce the figure of 3581 able-bodied male 'western' Jews' employed only in armaments - was 54,981. Of this number, 46,751 were deemed fit for work, while 34,723 were actually employed. (Franciszek Piper, Arbeitseinsatz der Haeftlinge aus dem KL Auschwitz, inserted table after p.80)

Straight away it is clear that 85% of male prisoners in Auschwitz had been adjudged fit for work, leaving only 15% that were deemed unfit for work. These proportions included non-Jewish prisoners, mainly Poles, who did not run the risk of being selected for liquidation at this time, after the suspension of '14 f 13' in April 1943.

Danuta Czech in the Auschwitz chronicle interprets the labour report to mean that 7,830 male prisoners were as of 4 November 1943 sick and unable to work.

At this time, Jewish prisoners who were sick were given a number of weeks in a camp hospital, whether in Monowitz, the main camp or Birkenau, to recover; if they did not recover, then they were selected for the gas chambers. Non-Jewish prisoners were no longer subjected to the same policy.

The high proportion of prisoners deemed fit for work but unemployed was a consequence of imposing a prolonged quarantine on newly arrived prisoners, during which time they could not be employed.

There were two other groups of prisoners by November 1943 that were interned without working: Roma and Sinti ('gypsies'), who were not obliged to work, the 'Gypsy Camp' also included children; and the inmates of the Theresienstadt family camp, who were being held as part of a deception and disinformation strategy, this camp as the name suggests also included children who were unemployable.

Of the 34,723 employed male prisoners:
8,558 had jobs in the camp administration
10,132 were employed in constructing the camp
1,912 worked for the Deutsche Ausruestungswerke
229 for the Deutsche Lebensmittel GmbH (SS firm)
390 for the Golleschau cement works (SS firm)
1,587 in agriculture (SS-run farms around the camp)
11,915 for non-SS firms, i.e. including "armaments"

Sickness rates up to 15% in the entire complex and half of that in a labour camp meant that a very high proportion of the inmate population was reduced to exhaustion and illness by food, conditions, disease etc. Since Auschwitz was receiving thousands of new prisoners a month, this created a revolving door for many inmates. They would arrive, be selected as fit for work, be quarantined for several weeks, be assigned to a labour commando or sub-camp, work for months, then fall in, and would have a few weeks in hospital, if they recovered, they went back to work, if not they died or were killed.

There are a number of surviving Arbeitseinsatz reports for Birkenau in 1944 breaking down the reasons why someone wasn't employed. On 20 April 1944, for example, there were 18,355 male prisoners in Birkenau, of whom only 7422 were employed. 3,138 were in quarantine after arrival, nearly 3000 were unemployed in the Gypsy camp, 2137 were in the main camp hospital, over 1400 in the Theresienstadt family camp were too young or too old to work, and there were hundreds of sick patients in smaller out-clinics in different sectors.

bhigr said...

@terry So you are claiming that the SS officer Lied.

bhigr said...

"Firstly, the Auschwitz labour deployment branch identified only 'western' Jews who were male - Juden rather than Juedinnen - and ignored Polish male Jews, who made up a large proportion of the Jewish inmates of Auschwitz at this time.

Secondly, the Auschwitz labour deployment branch essentially provided only the number of 'western' Jews working in armaments rather than working on camp construction, in agriculture, etc. ,"

Where are your proofs?

Nicholas Terry said...

No, the Auschwitz labour deployment office responded to a request from Maurer for certain information which they presented in a narrow way. The response was literally correct, no lies were told by Auschwitz, they just presented the figures in a way that seemed most advantageous to themselves, mainly by excluding non-western Jews and ignoring Jews employed in non-armaments jobs.

Maurer then compared the narrow figure with another figure he had, and blew his top.

Typical bureaucracy; Maurer's office was at fault for not requesting fuller information and would have been better off not signalling its intention until it had all the facts, then ordering a transfer of prisoners. Which is what it usually did, judging by the Arbeitseinsatz documents from Auschwitz.

Transfers of able-bodied Jewish prisoners did indeed start in September 1943 btw - but not to armaments factories in Germany, rather they were sent to KL Warschau. Many Jewish prisoners jumped at the chance to leave thinking that wherever they went it couldn't be any worse than Auschwitz-Birkenau. And the prisoners that left were not employed in armaments - there were no offers to the Monowitz inmates to leave.

bhigr said...

If he didn't report all Jews fit for labour, then he lied, because this was the request.

Nicholas Terry said...

"Where are your proofs?"

Sergey posted the paper trail up-thread. The proof is in the wording of the requests, reply and Maurer's response - 3 separate documents.

One must know how to interpret the wordings of such documents, but one must also consider other documents and sources in order to understand what they actually meant.

"Armaments" employment in this context cannot include construction crews for the camp, or doctors employed in the camp hospital, or agriculture, etc.

Likewise, if the request asks in particular about western Jews and the reply then omits Polish Jews, one can see how this was interpreted and understood.

Separately to this omission, a very large number of Jews from districts in Poland had been registered at Auschwitz during August 1943, so many new arrivals were - Polish Jews.

Nicholas Terry said...

"If he didn't report all Jews fit for labour, then he lied, because this was the request."

No, the request and reply read as follows.

The Auschwitz reply was literalist and economical with the truth. These are more useful ways of describing the bureaucratic stalling tactics being used than saying the Auschwitz SS "lied".

Basically the Auschwitz reply was: sorry, we can't give you any Jews.

Maurer still called the Auschwitz SS out for not giving the full information, but his staff was at fault for wording the request as it appears.

Oranienburg Nr. 5294 26.8.43 1500=GR=. An den Kommandanten K.L. Auschwitz SS-Obersturmbannf√ľhrer Hoess. Betrifft: Abgabe von Judenhaeftlingen. Wie ich bereits am 25. ds. M. SS-Hauptsturmf√ľhrer Schwarz gesagt habe, benoetige ich baldigst die Zahl derjenigen juedischen H√§ftlinge die an andere KL abgegeben werden k√∂nnen. Es kommen nur voll arbeits- und einsatzfaehige Juden in Frage und zwar vornehmlich Westjuden.
Baldige Nachricht erwarte ich. Gez. Maurer [darunter Eingangsstempel des KZ Auschwitz, Datum: 26. Aug. 1943]

3143 28.8.43. Betreff: Abgabe von Juden-Häftlingen Bezug: DortFS v.26.8.43.
Nr.4294 Von den im KL Auschwitz einsitzenden Juden sind 446 deutsche, 700 franz√∂sische, 198 slowakische, 162 tschechische, 37 kroatische, 127 holl√§ndische, 184 belgische, 5 norwegische, 1722 griechische Juden arbeitsf√§hig und restlos bei den R√ľstungsbetrieben besch√§ftigt (und k√∂nnen nicht abgegeben werden.)
[Text in Klammern im Original durchgestrichen, d.V.] gez. Sell SS-Untersturmf√ľhrer

bhigr said...

I can read German. He wants the total number of Jews capable of working, preferably western Jews. You claim that he didn't report the total number of fit Jews, so the response is a lie!

bhigr said...

Now please present me your evidence that he lied.

Sergey Romanov said...

"There was no reason for him to hide the numbers, he could just state that all fit inmates were needed by Auschwitz, since this is what he said about the 3581 fit inmates that he actually reported."

We know that he didn't report all the Jews fit for work if only because he didn't mention the Polish Jews (and it is impossible that there were no Polish Jews fit for work there).

I'm ignoring the rest of your spam - and it is spam until you actually face the facts.
Any further message from you ignoring the fact I have just repeated will be deleted.

PS: thanks for demonstrating once again that deniers are impervious to facts, documents and reason.

Nicholas Terry said...

"I can read German. He wants the total number of Jews capable of working, preferably western Jews. You claim that he didn't report the total number of fit Jews, so the response is a lie!"

No, it's not a lie, it is being economical with the truth by reading the request to provide information about western Jews. The request asked about western Jews, the reply gave information about western Jews - omitting Polish Jews.

Have you never had a poorly-worded request for information at your workplace? Because sorry to burst your bubble, they happen all the time.

Sergey Romanov said...

"O.k. unless I accept your opinion as fact then I will be deleted. Thanks for the open debate and courteous responses from you guys. So long!"

It's not an opinion, it's what the document says. No Polish Jews are mentioned in the document.

Sergey Romanov said...

I know only too well that debating deniers is like trying to nail jelly to a wall.

So yes, either get smart or get out.

Sergey Romanov said...

No use trying. Until you acknowledge that Sell's stats were not complete because he didn't count the Polish Jews, you won't get further.

Sergey Romanov said...

It's a brute fact that the Polish Jews fit for work were not a part of this statistic. Hence the statistic cannot tell us anything about the function of the camp.

Sergey Romanov said...

Might be a good material for a new article, because this document has been misused by the deniers at least since Weber (and that includes Irving). Mattogno is merely regurgitating the old stuff without any fact-checking, the hack that he is.

Nathan said...

Dr. Terry:Have you never had a poorly-worded request for information at your workplace? Because sorry to burst your bubble, they happen all the time.

It happened to me just now. I'm not kidding. Deniers have no idea how the real world works, being stuck in their fantasies and all.

Sergey Romanov said...

Nota bene:

https://www.academia.edu/7695686/Zwischen_Selbstreflexion_und_Projektion._Die_Bilder_von_Ostjuden_in_zionistischen_und_orthodoxen_deutsch-j%C3%BCdischen_Periodika_w%C3%A4hrend_des_Ersten_Weltkriegs_in_Zeitschrift_f%C3%BCr_Ostmitteleuropa-Forschung_59_2010_H._1_S._65-92

F√ľr Birnbaum unterscheiden sich Ostjuden von Westjuden nicht prim√§r durch ihre geografische Ansiedlung in „den L√§ndern des slawischen Osteu-ropa“. Vielmehr diene diese geografische Lokalisierung nur der Begriffs-bildung, bestimme aber nicht den Typus der Ostjuden, da diese auch au√üer-halb jenes Siedlungsgebiets – beispielsweise in New York – anzutreffen seien.
Nach Birnbaums Interpretation l√§sst also nicht ein bestimmter Ort, sondern eine bestimmte Mentalit√§t bzw. Kultur die Ostjuden als einen eigenen Typus entstehen. Die Ostjudenheit, die sich aus der Gemeinschaft der einzelnen Ostjuden herausgebildet hatte, formte somit „eine gro√üe geschlos-sene, von j√ľdischen Lebensgesetzen bestimmte, in eigenen j√ľdischen Lebens-formen sich realisierende eigene Kulturgemeinschaft“.
Folglich liegt f√ľr Birnbaum „in dieser Wesenheit das Moment […], das sie von der Westjudenheit unterscheidet“.
Obwohl dieser vornehmlich „kulturtypologische“ Ansatz eine Abgrenzung zwischen Ostjuden und Westjuden bereits aufzeigt, war die innerj√ľdische Trennlinie nicht nur kultureller und geographischer Natur, sondern auch eng an die sozio√∂konomische Lage der jeweiligen Judenheit gebunden – was Birnbaum allerdings bereits andeutete.
Auf diese Unterscheidungsebene, die vor allem auch den Blick daf√ľr √∂ffnet, dass manche j√ľdische Gemeinden in ostmitteleurop√§ischen Gegenden, beispielsweise in B√∂hmen und M√§hren, eher dem westeurop√§ischen als dem osteurop√§ischen Typus entsprachen, hat insbesondere Ezra Mendelsohn aufmerksam gemacht. Eine j√ľdische Gemeinde des osteurop√§ischen Typus, so f√ľhrt er aus, „was characterized by the relative weakness of acculturation and assimilation, the preservation of Yiddish speech and religious Orthodoxy […], and a lower-middle-class and proletarian socioeconomic structure“.
Er kombiniert somit die Faktoren Kultur, Religion und sozio√∂konomische Struktur, um zu einer Klassifikation von Ostjuden und Westjuden zu gelangen. Eine j√ľdische Gemeinde des westeurop√§ischen Typus sei hingegen „characterized by a high degree of acculturation, aspirations toward assimilation, and a general tendency to abandon both Yiddish and Orthodoxy, accompanied by a readiness to embrace some form of Reform, or liberal, Judaism“.

Sergey Romanov said...

https://www.unrast-verlag.de/news/317-einleitung-werner-portmann-siegbert-wolf-ja-ich-kaempfte

Festzuhalten bleibt, dass eine Definition des ›Ost‹- bzw. ›Westjuden‹ sich geographisch nicht ma√üstabsgerecht auf Ost- bzw. Westeuropa anwenden l√§sst, sondern, dass wir »nichtakkulturierte Ghettojuden«15 im √∂stlichen Teil der Tschechoslowakei, in Polen und Litauen vorfinden, w√§hrend wir ›Westjuden‹ auch in Ostmitteleuropa nachweisen k√∂nnen, etwa in B√∂hmen und M√§hren, in Ungarn und auch in Lettland. Keineswegs alle J√ľdinnen und Juden Ostmittel- und Osteuropas sind daher automatisch als ›Ostjuden‹ zu bezeichnen.

Sergey Romanov said...

Aug. 27, 1943 entry in Czech says: "On this day a total of 5,822 prisoners are working in the agricultural and animal breeding operations."
Aug. 30, 1943: "5,541 prisoners of Auschwitz, including 1,337 skilled workers, are employed in the I.G. Farben plants. 2,019 prisoners of Auschwitz, including 138 skilled workers, are employed in the Neu-Dachs auxiliary camp in Jaworzno."

Any questions?

Jeff said...

I may be a little late on this but there is nothing at all bizarre about hospitals at an extermination camp. Division of labor is a key aspect of German policy towards Jewish inmates there and elsewhere.

J Kelly said...

I agree.
I mentioned even the Reinhard Camps had "recovery areas" where sick workers were given a chance to get better.
The SS recognized it was easier to keep experienced workers than to train new workers.
Granted, if the Jewish worker remained ill or took too long to recover they were executed.