Saturday, December 22, 2012

"Pregnant Women will be Put to Death": Policies on Childbirth

I am grateful to Kent Ford for transcribing ghetto diaries that show the policy of the Nazis towards pregnancy. The following text is largely in his own words and was originally posted in a RODOH thread that disappeared when the forum closed.

In Kovno ghetto, on 24 July 1942, around the time of Great Deportation from Warsaw, Avraham Tory noted the following: 
The Gestapo issued an order: pregnancy in the Ghetto is forbidden. Every pregnancy must be terminated. An eighth- or ninth-month pregnancy may be completed. From September on, giving birth is strictly forbidden. Pregnant women will be put to death.
Five days later Tory noted a circular from the Jewish Council informing physicians and midwives of their responsibilities under the Gestapo order. On 7 August, Tory wrote that SS Sergeant "Rauca, accompanied by Garfunkel, toured the institutions of The Ghetto. During the tour he noticed a pregnant woman, in her seventh month. Rauca said: 'This embryo must perish. If not, it will be taken away from its mother right after birth." The Council, on 8 September, "issued an announcement about the ban on pregnancies in the Ghetto. From now on, the Germans declare that any pregnant woman will be killed on the spot."


In early January 1943, Council members were questioned by Keiffler, deputy governor of Kovno city, about ghetto statistics, including "how many births? . . . We answered that ever since last September there have been no births in the Ghetto. That was news to him."

Council members explained that "'The Gestapo had strictly forbidden women in the Ghetto to give birth, and so they all had to terminate pregnancies.' . . . When the word 'Gestapo' is uttered the great Keiffler refrains from asking questions. . . . It appears that even a figure like Keiffler does not dare to show any interest in the Gestapo's activities." In July 1943 Tory cited the death penalty for giving birth as one factor in the ghetto's declining population.

In contrast, in the Reich, Himmler promoted large families and a high birth rate for German women with slogans like "the battle for births of good blood." He even argued that large families for Germans were a public duty and not a matter for individual choice.

Of course, the prohibition of births amongst temporarily maintained work Jews only confirms what was in store for them in the end. The Nazis at Kovno could have allowed births and killed off the young ones at the end with their parents. But it would have been doubly wasteful: the kids would have had to be fed and the parents would have had to expend effort and energy for child-rearing, one of the fundamental points of biology being parental investment. And, wanting effort and energy of temporarily surviving Jews to go for the war effort, the Nazis didn't want to have the "distraction" of kids in the ghetto at Kovno. Thus the Kovno nazis "got rid" of the kids ahead of time, first killing off 150+ who were kept together at the hospital in fall 1941 and then preventing new "pretexts for parental" effort from coming into being.

The Shavli connection: From the Diary of E. Yerushalmi, Shavli Ghetto:

July 4, 1942
". . . Dr. Charny drew the attention of the Jewish delegation to the Order concerning births. The Order was first issued on March 5, 1942. The latest date for authorized births was August 5, 1942. He would extend the date to August 15, 1942. In the event of a birth taking place in a Jewish family after this date the whole Jewish family would be "removed" and the responsibility would rest with the Jewish delegates . . ."

July 13, 1942
"Re: Security Police Order
In accordance with the Order of the Security Police, births are permitted in the ghetto only up to August 15, 1942. After this date it is forbidden to give birth to Jewish children either in the hospitals or in the homes of the pregnant women. It is pointed out, at the same time, that it is permitted to interrupt pregnancies by means of abortions. A great responsibility rests on the pregnant women. If they do not comply with this order, there is a danger that they will be executed, together with their families. The delegates are making this matter widely known. In warning the women of the possible consequences, they believe that the women concerned will remember it well . . . and will take the necessary measures during the registration of pregnant women which will take place during the next few days, and subsequently.
Protocol of the meeting of the Shavli Judenrat on March 24, 1943

Those present: M. Lejbowicz, B. Karton, A. Heller and A. Katz of the Delegation; the doctors: Burstein, Blecher, Goldberg, Dyrektorowicz, L. Pesachowicz and others. The Agenda: How should births be prevented in the ghetto? M. Lejbowicz: We will go back to the question of the births. The ban on giving birth to children which has been imposed on the Jews applies with the utmost severity to all the ghettos. There was a birth recently in Kovno and all members of the family were shot and killed. But no attention is being paid to this and people are behaving most irresponsibly here. There are already several cases of pregnancy and no measures have been taken against them. Dr. Blecher asks: Can the pregnant women be forced to have abortions performed? Are there statistics on the women who are pregnant? Dr. L. reports: We have had three births since August 15 of last year; he did not know how they took place because he did not treat the cases. At the present time there are about 20 pregnant women in the ghetto, most of them in the first few months, but some who are already in the fourth or fifth month and one even in the eighth month. Only two of the pregnant women refuse to have an abortion; for one of them this would be the third abortion and she is threatened by the danger of subsequent childlessness, and the other is the one who has reached the eighth month. Dr. P.: They must be persuaded to agree to have an abortion. They must be told what happened in Kovno and Riga. If necessary one must make use of a white lie in this emergency and tell them that the Security Police is already looking for these cases. Dr. Burstein proposes that the whole medical team, including the midwives, should be forbidden to attend to births. Dr. Bl. proposes that all cases of pregnancy should be registered and the pregnant women persuaded to have abortions. M.L.: We must not make propaganda against births in public! The matter could reach ears that should not hear it. We must discuss the matter only with those concerned. He proposes that the pregnant women be summoned to the clinic, that they be warned in the presence of the doctor and a representative of the Delegation, and the full danger that awaits them be explained. Dr. L.: How can one perform an abortion on a woman who has already reached the eighth month of her pregnancy? Surely we must understand the feelings of the mother. It will surely be impossible to convince her. And what will happen to the infant if we cause a premature birth? We cannot carry out an operation like that in a private home, and it is forbidden to leave the child at the hospital. And what will happen if despite everything the child is born alive? Shall we kill it? I cannot accept such a responsibility on my conscience. Dr. Bl. adds that the position is really very difficult in a case like this for no doctor will take upon himself the responsibility of killing a live child, for that would be murder. Dr. P. asks: Perhaps we should let the child be born and give it to a Christian? M.L.: We cannot allow the child to be born because we are required to report every case of a birth. We have been asked three times whether there were any births and each time we answered in the negative. B.K.: What can we do when the ghetto is in such danger? If the danger were only to the family of the infant we could leave the matter to the responsibility of the person concerned, but it endangers the whole ghetto. The consequences are liable to be most terrible. . . ."
Similar activities can be found in memoirs concerning Auschwitz. The following is taken from the Museum's Facebook site and cites the "Memoirs of former prisoner Margita Schwalbova, a Jewish physician from Slovakia employed in the camp hospital (so-called Revier), on the story of pregnant women and children born in Auschwitz. Schwalbova was deported to Auschwitz on March 28, 1942 in a mass transport from Bratislava and given number 2675":
Children were born in Birkenau from the earliest days of that camp. They were not in fact born until the fall of 1942, because every woman found to be pregnant was killed by phenol injection, or Dr. Bodmann terminated the pregnancy in such a way that every mother died from blood infection.
After our transfer to the camp in Birkenau children began to be born, but as a rule mother and child were sent to the gas chamber after birth, regardless of whether they were Aryans or Jews. Auschwitz was a death camp, not a life camp, and there was no need for young progeny.

At the end of 1942, the SS doctor at the time, Dr. Helmut Vetter, sent a letter to Berlin inquiring whether newborn infants could be placed in German nursery schools (in other words to be Germanized) while the mothers remained in the camp. No reply came for a long time, and when it did come, it was negative.
Non-Jewish newborn infants who began coming into the world at a later period were left alive. It even looked as if these new regulations applied to all women. But this was not true. After a few weeks, the SS men suddenly rounded up the infants and their mothers and gassed them.
To the degree that the pregnant women confided in us in the first months of pregnancy, we women gynecologists-prisoners-terminated them in the hospital during that time. Please not that not a single woman died from this procedure. Naturally, it was done in secret, and we admitted the women to the hospital on the basis of other diagnoses.
 
If the Nazis were willing to do these things to pregnant women and newborns, the threshold of genocide had clearly been crossed.

39 comments:

Franz Holtzhäuser said...

So basically all you have for this is the words from this Jew Avraham Tory? Aight, I'll take your word for it, Avraham. Your people aren't known to tell tall-tales, no, not at all..

Kent Ford said...

What makes you think that is all "we" have, Franz Assholehauser? Oh, your ignorance, which reinforces your atavistic bias. Of course.

This is, after all, a short blog entry, a snapshot, as Jon wrote, transcriptions of some diaries, not all the evidence for policy in Kovno nor for Nazi anti-natal policies and actions. Tory was but one observer of the events in Kovno; "we" have others writing and testifying about the occupying authority's policy against pregnancy and how inmates of the ghetto dealt with it. Or is this your first foray into these topics?

And you seem to have missed a bit of testimony, in the form, also, of a contemporary diary from Shavli, coincidentally from the some month as Tory's first reference. Intentional idiocy or just your stupidity?

Have you studied Tory's diary and can you enlighten us to where and how so it is unreliable?

Anyway, you seem to have missed the order noted by Tory, which is found in a compilation of order at Yad Vashem, file 048 B12/4, "Pregnancies and births in the ghetto are prohibited; pregnancies have to be terminated; pregnant women will be shot." 24 July 1942, USHMM, Hidden History of the Kovno Ghetto, page 22. Oh, and guess what, if you bother to look, you will also see the the Kovno Jewish Council (Altestenrat) noted on 8 September 1942 (the document is reproduced on page 181 of the USHMM's history of Kovno ghetto) that "According to an order from the organs of authority, giving birth in the ghetto is forbidden under penalty of eat. Every pregnancy must be terminated." Perhaps you are confused as to who the authorities referred to by the council of Jewish elders?

All this is in line with SS- Standartenfuhrer Jaeger's earlier report on murder actions in Lithuania during summer and fall of 1941. You recall, no doubt, that Jaeger advised his superiors as follows: "I consider the Jewish operations for Einsatzkommando 3 as essentially completed. The still available Work Jews and female Work Jews are urgently required and I can foresee that post-Winter, this manpower will still be most urgently required. I am of the view that sterilization of the male Work Jews should begin immediately to prevent reproduction. Should a Jewess nonetheless become pregnant, she is to be liquidated."

Gee whiz, so, no, Tory's diary entries are not all "we" have. But, the question comes to mind, what do you have, other than a gutter level bias against Jews that has you doubting Tory's diary because he is the "Jew Avram Tory"?

Franz Holtzhäuser said...

You're asking me what I have, Kentford? I have only the meager word from Avraham Tory (you got his and my name wrong).
I may have said this one comment up. Ya, SURE did.
And apparently you have anecdotal "evidence" from a Jewish Council in Kovno? This surely is becoming more and more attractive; as a matter of fact, I'll state here and now, I'll believe this and repeat it thoughtlessly from now on! Like a gooood Holocaust Believer sipin' in the valuable diary comments and anecdotal evidence of our beloved Jewish Council.

God damn these Hurencaust Deniers! How the hell do they have the stomach to not take this horseshit at face value, how DARE they do this despite our stringent laws!

I'm very thankful and happy that Holocaust Enforcers and Hurencaust Tools such as yourself, Kent, are available to spread this German hatred to the world. We surely needed in times of harsh criticism of both Jews, Israel and our beloved Belief. You always gotta' capitalize the "B" in Belief - to identify to other Believers that you really believe.

Well, as I say, Avraham and the Jewish Council seals the deal for me. You can count on me to spread this hateful shit elsewhere!

Thanks Clark Kent, the Super Man of the Hurencaust Enforcers!

FRANZ (and it's Holtzhäuser to you man)

Kent Ford said...

Good grief, you missed it again: the order I mentioned, not a diary entry (although mentioned in diaries), but an order, according to the USHMM, found in a compilation of German orders at the citation I gave in Yad Vashem archives.

And don't you find it interesting when diaries, memories, and the actual orders, none of them "anecdotal," coincide? Well, no, you don't, because Jews were involved.

Go to hell.

You really are a moron, aren't you? So, yes, I misspelled Avraham early this morning replying to your staggeringly stupid reply - but, by golly, I spelled your name right I see.

And you still have bupkes, Assholehauser.

And what does Clark Kent have to do with anything . . . ?

Franz Holtzhäuser said...

Please post your "actual order", verbatim.
Well, Clark Kent comes to the rescue. So does Clark Kentford - he tries to be the rescuer of the incredible Hurenco$t.
I never understood why you Jews have such a like for all things "ass". When are you going to rain scatological references, Clark Kentford?

FRANZ

Kent Ford said...

So you are not only an anti-Semitic ignoramus but also unable to read. As I figured. But, no, I won't post another reference to the German order or quote from it again. You guys really don't have much going for you or even half decent chops. Enjoy.

Nathan said...

I wouldn't worry too much about K0nsl here. He's probably still in a foul mood after his ass got handed to him a couple of months ago. He said he was done with this blog, but here he is, trolling away. Must be hard for him to get laid or something.

-to spread this German hatred to the world-
He still hasn't looked in the mirror. Most people today can tell the difference between modern Germany and his beloved Nazis. At any rate, you don't really "need" the Holocaust to "hate" Germany. Chancellor Merkel's mismanagement of the Eurozone crisis is "reason" enough. Or, possibly, anti islamic graffiti placed by some of his fellows. Even his fellows have realized that Jew bashing is passé and have "moved on" to Islamophobia. How pitiful for the Nazi losers like him; even other Nazis are moving away.

Nice to have you back, KF9

Franz Holtzhäuser said...

Nathan:
You're a fool if you think that people would hate Germans or Germany because Chancellor Merkel makes a wrong.
Probably was not even her fault, either.

FRANZ

Franz Holtzhäuser said...

Clark Kent couldn't provide the verbatim order which THE Council in Kovno spoke about, or that which our reliable Avraham Tory (a Jew) wrote about in his 100% trustworthy diary.

I didn't ask for a damn reference either. I told you, Clarky, to post the actual order - verbatim!

Guess our resident SuperHuren needs more spurn.

What a Hurenco$t it all was. I weep.

FRANZ

Nicholas Terry said...

Assholehauser, a reference has been given. The normal rules of discussion and scholarship state that once a reference has been provided, the burden of proof shifts to whoever might wish to doubt it.

Those normal rules also say that if a troll ventures out from under his bridge and acts like an asshole, then people will call the troll an asshole, which is why you are now known as Assholehauser.

If you cannot be bothered to check the reference, then nobody here cares, because you are Assholehauser and you don't do serious discussion.

Truly, it is remarkable how little you have deigned to learn about the Holocaust despite your many years of denierdom.

Have you, in fact, *ever* read a conventional scholarly book on the Holocaust? If so, which? If you can demonstrate a conventional familiarity with what the book actually says (i.e. its actual contents, argument, sources etc), then we will stop calling you Assholehauser. If you can't, then Assholehauser you will remain, for ever more.

Kent Ford said...

Hey k0nsl, or is that Haldan, anyway, hey Bozo, is this your first time trying to "do history"? Must be.

To start with, no one can post the actual document, as it is a physical object in the Yad Vashem archive, as I noted in my first reply to your submoronic musings. How stupid can an antisemitic troll be?

Also, you don't seem to know how history is done. A historian does research, writes his or her conclusions, cites archives and documents. Other historians make use of the work done before them, not doing all research from scratch, nitwit. On the other hand, anyone is free to doubt or dispute the research and go check it out for himself or herself.

Do you doubt the USHMM research? Do you doubt that I accurately quoted the document the USHMM team cited in "The Hidden History of Kovno"? Do you have a better reason than your hopeless, archaic atavism that "Jews were involved"? Well, good for you. Until you state it, you still have bupkes.

And, no, the citation in my first reply is neither to the Kovno Altestenrat nor to Avraham Tory, "Jew," as you now try implying. The Altestenrat reference - I am helping you learn to read at this point - was from 8 September 1942; Tory's diary entries were dated, as the blog entry notes and you seem incapable of digesting, 24 July 1942 - the same day as the order was made; 5 days after that; and 7 August 1942. Whilst Tory paraphrased the order, his diary entry is not the same thing as the order, which is quoted in the USHMM publication I cited.

It seems that we have basically a bit more that "the words from this Jew Avraham Tory," eh. And all you're doing is spewing and whining and ignoring what's been posted to try to put across your negationism. Plus ca change, plus la meme chose, k0nsl: you're ignorant as ever under your other names, we see.

Franz Holtzhäuser said...

Hey, Clark Can't, I asked you to post the actual document V-E-R-B-A-T-I-M, but you were unable to.
You needn't post the physical document (scanned) - just the verbatim text of the 'actual order' which you have claimed exists.

Your refusal to do this -- backed up by Saint Terrycaust -- is most revealing.
I think you need to pray extra hard to your scum-god Wiesenthal today. The Hurenco$t God's are looking down on the both of ya.

So instead of refusing to backup your claims why not actually show me the verbatim of your claimed 'actual order'?

Friends, I bid you good bye for now.

FRANZ

Kent Ford said...

Quite revealing in that I posted in my very first reply the relevant words, verbatim, from the document, as quoted in "The Hidden History of Kovno Ghetto": when you ask for the relevant words from the order "verbatim," and have had them all along, you decide it's time to skedaddle. No wonder.

You have nothing - and we have Tory's diary entries, Kovno Jewish Council documents, recommendations from Jaeger, a number of other diary entries, parallel contemporary references from Shavli - and the "verbatim" words from the German order. What do you have? The need to flee . . . and a silly farewell. Toodles, scum.

Franz Holtzhäuser said...

Clark Kentford has trouble understanding something so simple as my request which was me asking for the 'actual order' in verbatim text.
You posted an alleged quote which is claimed to be [a select bit] from this alleged order.
Now Clark Kentford says he posted what I requested of him – but that's untrue, what the 'Superman of Hurenco$t' actually posted was merely an extract from a quote alleged to have been originating from the order which Crapford stake his Belief in.

Now this Clark Kent numbnut is imitating the behaviour most often exhibited by the 'Hurenco$t Blowhard', Roberto Muehlenkamp – this tactic of his will naturally not advance his argumentation any further.
But if Clerkford want's to believe in diary stories and what a Jewish Council in Kovno says, well, I guess that's his choice.

I'd still like to see the entire claimed order, in verbatim - not a hack-quote from somebody else claiming more things...

FRANZ

Nicholas Terry said...

Assholehauser, you were already given verbatim quotes from the order. Look, here they are again:

"Pregnancies and births in the ghetto are prohibited; pregnancies have to be terminated; pregnant women will be shot."

"According to an order from the organs of authority, giving birth in the ghetto is forbidden under penalty of death. Every pregnancy must be terminated."

What possible further detail could be in those sources that would contradict the clearly expressed edict?

You were already given precise references to a book should you actually care about this enough to fuss over it further. Look at comment #2.

Or look up Christoph Dieckmann's Deutsche Besatzungspolitik in Litauen 1941-1944, pp.1098-1099, which discusses the exact same development with the exact same sources and then shows using monthly reports of the health department that there were (a) no more babies born in the Kovno ghetto after September 1942 and (b) quite a few operations in the ghetto hospital were abortions.

We don't expect you to grasp that Kovno was by 1942 a work-ghetto with a fraction of its former population, who had been murdered in 1941, because you are, quite frankly, a complete moron with zero grasp of what the actual history says. Should you ever wish to correct this gaping deficit in your comprehension of your little hobby-horse, you might actually have to read something.

Oh, and moron, you never did answer my question asking what conventional history book you've ever read about the Holocaust. We'll assume until contradicted that the answer is 'none'.

Franz Holtzhäuser said...

Nicholas Terry:

I never asked for 'verbatim quotes'.

Show the actual claimed order, in verbatim.

I note this is the second time you're avoiding to answer my request.

This is of course, as I say, most revealing.

FRANZ

Kent Ford said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kent Ford said...

What is most revealing is how Assholehauser has shown us, convincingly, that a) he knows nothing about this topic and b) he probably has never read a serious book on the Holocaust. None of which stops him from filling the air with his anti-semitic "doubts" here.



Recall that Assholehauser started out noisily asserting that all "we" have regarding Nazi birth policy in occupied Lithuania is Tory's diary entry. With so much that we have - listed above, and now with even more shared by Nick, and all this stuff that "we" have contradicting his first reply - k0nsl is now fussing over the font in which "we" have shown him the words for the German order and the paragraph formatting we will present the other documents on the order's repercussions. Or might as well be.



No sentient being will take this desperation of the lost cause seriously.



Stupid is as stupid does, and Assholehauser is nothing if not stupid. He has bupkis: he still has yet to offer even a word of explanation for why he doubts Tory or any of the other sources mentioned in the blog post or replies to his "Tory was a Jew" crap. He might as well doubt the nose on his face. Which would be just as interesting as the "objections" he has offered here. Dumb fuck.



And, I now must thank the moron for praising me by comparing me to Roberto Muehlenkamp.



On the other hand, Assholehauser said he was off, and yet he is back saying nothing and wasting good words to say it. k0nsl has always been an especially dim bulb in the dark sewer of denial. Oh well.

Franz Holtzhäuser said...

Are you complaining about me biding you ‘good bye for now’? You do realize what ‘for now’ means, yes? I returned one hour and thirty minutes later. You do not dictate how long time must pass between me leaving and later returning. What trivial complaints you try to invent, my dearest Crapford.
You're mad as hell because I challenged you to produce the entire claimed order, verbatim? This is customary to ask for in a discussion - merely [alleged] extracts are worth very little in the academic world, but you already know this so well.
I can only conclude that you are unable to produce what I have asked for.

I should like to note that its certainly not ‘anti-semitic’ to make clear that a person is Jewish, nor is it ‘anti-semitic’ to have doubts - certainly in the case of this entire matter, I'll come out and say that I won't believe it until the order is produced [in verbatim]. While we're at it, let's see some verifiable excavations of the alleged victims you have claimed. Where can I read this report? Surely it must exist.
This Hurenco$t is like a really poor AMD paper-launch, but AMD generally produce something in the end - which is more than one can say about your beloved Hurenco$t, Kookford.

Yeah I compared you to the HC-Blowhard RoboCop. Hardly a compliment in any way you look at it. That's like getting spat in the face, Crackford.
For you information I do know history and I read mainstream Hurenco$t works as frequently as time allows me. I hope this answer makes that clear.
As for Terry, I am not about to list any of the works I've read now and in the past. If you need jerk off material I suggest you Google for it:
https://www.google.dk/search?num=10&hl=dk&site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1680&bih=912&q=Dead+Jews+Bergen-Belsen&oq=Dead+Jews+Bergen-Belsen

Merry Hurencaust to you all!

FRANZ

Kent Ford said...

Well, a lot of fuss to confirm, basically, that you have nothing to contribute to this discussion. Except your general and consuming doubt, in this case your doubt of Tory because, as you put it, he was "this Jew" and his "people aren't known to tell tall-tales." And nothing anti-Semitic, you say, except your doubting Tory on the sole ground that Jews tell tall-tales, you say - and throwing in some stray idiocy about a presumed need to criticize Jews harshly and "why you Jews have a like for all things 'ass.'"

I see.

Remember that you started off with a direct and verifiable claim - that all "we" have regarding German policy on this topic is Tory's word.

Leaving aside that you haven't mustered a single, meaningful, source-based objection to Tory's word on this topic, I'll remind you what "we" have:

1) Tory's contemporary diary entries reacting to the German order.

2) Corresponding diary entries made by E. Yerushalmi in Shavli regarding similar German orders in force there.

3) An example of the Kovno Jewish Council's reaction to the order, a document reiterating the imposition of the German decision banning pregnancy on penalty of death (with a page reference to both a facsimile of this document and a verbatim translation of a portion of it).

4) A quotation (verbatim) from an SS leader - an accomplished leader of the extermination squads in Lithuania - urging that the Germans adopt a policy there forbidding pregnancy and liquidating Jewish women who become pregnant.

5) A reference to at least one historical work citing the actual order, quoting it, as you insist on repeating, verbatim, translating its actual wording. You were given a page number for this citation (the USHMM's Hidden History of Kovno Ghetto, p. 22 ) as well as the archival reference for the document quoted (Yad Vashem, file 048 B12/4).

6) A reference to a further a secondary work, "which," as Nick Terry explained to you, "discusses the exact same development with the exact same sources and then shows using monthly reports of the health department that there were (a) no more babies born in the Kovno ghetto after September 1942 and (b) quite a few operations in the ghetto hospital were abortions. quoting the relevant words as well as the archival reference for the order in a compilation of other German orders." (Nick kindly pointed you to the pages to which he referred, Dieckmann's Deutsche Besatzungspolitik in Litauen 1941-1944, pp.1098-1099.)

Kent Ford said...

And what do you do about the various elements "we" have regarding German anti-natal policy for Jews in occupied Kovno?

Shifting attention from your ignorant first reply, which has been seen to be demonstrably wrong and ill-informed, you now try making out a failure that "we" can't hand you the entire order or compilation of orders at Yad Vashem. But that wasn't what your initial objection was. Your initial objection was that "we" supposedly had nothing but one Jew's tall tale. How far we have come.

So, having failed at putting across your first claim, you now try showing that I don't have what I never said I had. No, I don't have a facsimile of the order or any other translated material from the compilation of orders at Yad Vashem. I may have, in fact, cited this particular order in full, but I may not have - I simply don't know as I have not seen the compilation at Yad Vashem and have never claimed to, using, as I have written since my first reply and as people who study history do, work done by others citing that order. You don't know, either, by the way.

Again, for your doubt of this order - which has been cited properly and according to the standards and conventions which historians employ and which also, as "We" have shown, caused contemporaries to make reference to the order and policy - to be given any credence, you need to show what is amiss here or to visit the archive and say where the USHMM researchers got it wrong.

You've done nothing of the sort - because you have nothing and have well proven that you have nothing in empty reply after empty reply. The question arises whether you'll keep up the vacuous nonsense or bring up an actual point in this ugly history.

Franz Holtzhäuser said...

Does anyone else note that Crapford fails to produce his claimed order?

Please produce the claimed order in verbatim.

As Mathis would have said; "put up, or shut up".

I'll come back when you have produced the order, Kookford. Over and out!

Jonathan Harrison said...

Gewecke interviewed by Lanzmann:

"Lanzmann asks Gewecke about the prohibition on Jewish pregnancies in the ghetto. Gewecke says he knew of the regulation but did not concern himself with enforcing it. He lists other restrictions and rules that Jews were required to follow. He says the Judenrat had authority over the Jewish police and for the Jews. The SD told him that if the smuggling of food did not stop they would liquidate Jews."

http://resources.ushmm.org/film/display/detail.php?file_num=5089

Franz Holtzhäuser said...

Yeah, but do we actually have the entire 'claimed order', in verbatim, Hairyson? Nope.
I'm not even sure why I bother with this because even if this order does exist and says what you claim this still wouldn't advance your Hurencaust Belief any further up the scale.
One can certainly understand the logic in such an order given the circumstances that reigned back when all this happened, well- minus your hate Germany claims.
Naturally one wouldn't wish to encourage births when a full-blown war is taking place and certainly more so considering that the Jews were more or less quarantined whilst sitting out the war waiting to be deported further east - and apparently a great deal of people were deported, but of course they're listed as either missing or murdered today.

Well, to hell with it. I merely wished that you reproduced the entire claimed order in verbatim text.
You failed to do this. But as I have said already - even if it exists, so what? It changes nothing really.

Kent Ford said...

Pretty hilarious: "But as I have said already - even if it exists, so what? It changes nothing really." In other words, no amount of evidence, and no document in any format, will convince this knucklehead of any point that doesn't fit his biases and preconceptions.

Astounding.

And yet, "we" were asked if we had anything other than "words from this Jew Avraham Tory" about anti-Jewish policy in Kovno.

"We" have shown that we do. In fact, we never said we could share the materials from the archive at Yad Vashem in their entirety, so to say we failed to do so is a bit disingenuous. Now, someone could do so - that would be someone who researched the material in the cited compilation of orders. Too bad for k0nsl. If k0nsl can't produce a reason to doubt - amidst these numerous references to the order and a direct citation to the order itself - that the order exists, and was enforced, all he's proven is his own incompetence.

Rather than deal with the complete melt-down of his opening salvo, and with the documentation "we" have, k0nsl simply repeats that he is too thick to believe what he doesn't want to.

Revisionism in action, I suppose.

Nicholas Terry said...

"Does anyone else note that Crapford fails to produce his claimed order? Please produce the claimed order in verbatim."

Assholehauser, the order is not 'claimed'. It exists. It exists because we have referenced 2 separate books which cited the order, one of which includes a facsimile (photographic reproduction). These books also give traceable archival references.

Now, according to all the rules of scholarship, that is that. There is never a requirement to reproduce sources in toto, historians of all eras don't do that, because it's a waste of time, space and effort.

The system of academic citations has universal acceptance and is incredibly reliable. You can be guaranteed that on page 181 of the Hidden History of the Kovno Ghetto, a facsimile of the order appears. That should be common sense, because it's not just Kent Ford telling you this, it's me showing that Christoph Dieckmann in a totally different book also cited the same fucking page number.

You are of course free to express your generic doubt of all sources related to the Holocaust, but unless *you* check the document and *you* show us that there is something fishy, or that we cited from the wrong page, or that Dieckmann's book doesn't actually discuss the order at all, or that the Hidden History of the Kovno ghetto doesn't contain the quotes and the facsimiles, then your doubts are utterly irrelevant.

Since it's clear that you have absolutely no intention of checking out either book from a library, then all you're doing is demanding to be spoon-fed. You're trolling. So fuck off then.

Your trolling is also clear from the fallback position of 'even if it exists, so what?'

Actually so a lot, because it's one tiny piece of a much, much larger pile of evidence relating to the Holocaust in Lithuania, and the Holocaust as a whole. On its own, no piece of evidence ever proves something. On its own, every piece of evidence could be spun into a nonsensical story like your pathetic attempt to explain away this document.

Taken together, however, pieces of evidence tell a very different story to the denier fairy-tales. Dieckmann's discussion of the Holocaust in Lithuania runs from page 789 to page 1328 of his book. That's 539 pages citing god knows how many sources from all sorts of archives, including lots of Nazi documents.

We could quite easily spend ages pulling out piece after piece of evidence from this book, or from other books, and discuss them drip-drip-drip. No doubt that would annoy you and you'd troll some more.

Or we can simply make a short post like Jon Harrison did, pointing to a readily available book in English, with pictures, for the benefit of whoever might read this blog, and it won't make much difference either way.

Because whatever you pull out of your ass about one fact or one order or one event will be meaningless unless you can account for other facts, orders, events. Which you can only learn about by reading books.

Until you show that *you* have engaged with the evidence (by reading) then all your comments are just farts in the wind.

Franz Holtzhäuser said...

STILL nothing. Why am I not surprised? For your amusement, I'll play surprised.
Kookford and Terry basically has offered nothing to support their claims of a supposed "holocaust" in Lithuania. But anyone is naturally free to believe their two references they have posted. That's what's so great with the Hurencau$t!

Please resurrect Herr Bodmann for impregnation with phenol injections of Crapford and Terry's mother. Oh wait, that was just hysteric nonsense from yet another revengeful Jewess...this lovely, lovely Margita!

As I say, reproduce the entire order, preferably photocopied, but the entire verbatim order would be fine too.

FRANZ

Ingbritt said...

Scroll down to page 8 in this doc and you'll find the policy on pregnant Jewish women.

http://alley-cat.info//wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Jaeger_Report.pdf

Ingbritt said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Franz Holtzhäuser said...

Well, I'm not inclined to believe a piece of paper somebody conveniently 'found' over fifteen years after the supposed deed - bearing in mind that there is no forensic evidence to corroborate the claims made therein.
On top of this we've got a diary writer, a Jew, by the name of Avraham Tory who survived the ordeal as well.
So USHMM and Kook Ford says its a 'order' whilst Ing-Brett says it was a policy within the report supposedly authored by that of Karl Jäger? But none of these Supermen of the Holoshlock can produce it.

Kookford, I find it unreliable because there is nothing except his words to collaborate the claim.
Mr. Graf was right to mention his findings contained in the book ANATOLOGY OF HOLOCAUST LITERATURE which depicts life in Lithuania as flourishing from 1941 to 1944.
I agree too, with Graf, that with regard to that statement - the remark by your hero Karl Jäger - that Jewish life in Lithuania is over, must be a lie.

Look, what are some tens of thousands of dead Jews (via all causes) compared to the millions of other victims in WWII? Yeah, a spit in the ocean. But I occupy myself with this issue mainly because I hate that you denigrate Germany and Germans for Zionist interests.
Besides that point I also find it despicable how you can lie so brazenly about history.

This was not a "holocaust". Jews are still in the year of 2013 flourishing; as they were in Kovno in 1941 and onwards.

FRANZ

Nathan said...

- bearing in mind that there is no forensic evidence to corroborate the claims made therein.-
Still no forensic evidence for:
- expulsion of Germans from the east-
- Mass rapes-
- Gulags and Soviet crimes at places other than Katyn and Vinnitsa-

-I agree too, with Graf, that with regard to that statement - the remark by your hero Karl Jäger - that Jewish life in Lithuania is over, must be a lie.-
Graf must've pulled it out of his ass, then. All known sources say otherwise.

-Well, I'm not inclined to believe a piece of paper somebody conveniently 'found' -
No bitching about "Soviet Manipulation". Hmm. In that other article K0nsl trolled, it was pointed out that the Soviet policy at the time was not to identify the victims as Jews, which therefore makes any bitching about "Soviet Manipulation" pointless. K0nsl must be annoyed that he has nothing to say.

-Nathan:
You're a fool if you think that people would hate Germans or Germany because Chancellor Merkel makes a wrong.
Probably was not even her fault, either-
A wrong what? So frustrated that you have nothing to say?
You'd be an even bigger fool if you think that people would "hate" "Germans or Germany" because of something that happened sixty seven years ago and not because of current German policies. Most people have moved on- Even Jews today are more concerned about the Israel-Arab conflict than with the Holocaust. As said before, even K0nsl's "fellows" have moved on from antisemitism to Islamophobia. The only "obsession" here is those of the deniers.

Nathan said...

- compared to the millions of other victims in WWII? -
Hmm.. Is there any forensic evidence for these millions of victims K0nsl is talking about? There must be some, right?

Franz Holtzhäuser said...

I find nothing questionable with the crimes mentioned by Nathan.
It is however revealing that he even compares them.
It is only the Jews who finds pleasure in Islamophobia and it is only the Jew who wishes to shift focus from them to Islam. One must bear in mind that hatred of Islam, Muslims and Arabs comes from the Jews.
Immigration to European countries for quite different people (such as Arabs or Africans) are 100% encouraged by Jews, too. See Pamela Geller, for starters. Of course they want people to rather shift focus on a non-issue, or an issue created by them, rather.
Here is one of you, a 'Swede' too! The guy has managed to, almost, get a suit that fits him now, too:
http://www.photo2be.com/_2BE6364.jpg
He has never been for 'anti-semitism' and quite frankly, given his looks, one certainly understands why that is so.
Another fine picture:
http://db2.stb.s-msn.com/i/AD/CF8369EE904887CDDECD93D4C8C32C.jpg

You'll have to copy 'n paste the URLs (you're used to doing that) because I do not intend to wrap them in HTML tags, Nathan.

The victims that I mention require no forensic documentation because there is nothing questionable about them. See the difference? Whenever there is a claim of a Jewish 'mass grave' you refuse to tag and bag the supposed victims along with the standards of forensic investigation. People know why that is so, too.
It was the Jewish NKVD that did the most civilian killings in WW II - not the Germans!

FRANZ

Nathan said...

-Pamela Geller-
A darling of the former BNP, now the EDL. Your "former" allies now lining up with the "enemy". It hurts, doesn't it? No one giving a shit about you? The Jew bashing echo chamber getting smaller and smaller, until there's no one left to pat you on the back.


-The victims that I mention require no forensic documentation because there is nothing questionable about them. See the difference? Whenever there is a claim of a Jewish 'mass grave' you refuse to tag and bag the supposed victims along with the standards of forensic investigation.-

This implies that you have no doubt of those crimes because "the supposed victims have been tagged and bagged 'along with' the standards of forensic investigation'". Have they? Let's have it then- every single victim of Soviet terror not from Katyn or Vinnitsa, positively identified as such with forensic evidence, and every single rape kit from every single rape victim of the red army. You find nothing questionable about them, so surely you should be able to provide the forensic evidence for them all.


The sad truth is that there's nothing questionable at all about the account given above. You've had so many chances to explain why you doubt it, but you haven't.You have no basis to question the account given of Kovno, at all. Nothing but your own prejudice and confirmation bias.

--People know why that is so, too.It was the Jewish NKVD that did the most civilian killings in WW II - not the Germans!-
In addition to my above request, do you have any forensic evidence for the italics? The killer's DNA on the site, for example? Do you have any dissected brains with the neurons mapped showing that people do know? Let's have it.

Your methodology is utterly worthless if it fails to validate your claims.

Franz Holtzhäuser said...

Oh dear, we have a daft one. Geller is a Jew, Nathan. So is the "man" in the suit.
EDL is a movement squarely based on Zionist ideas and works very closely with Jewish interests, world-wide.

Who'd want bottom racking scum like Geller on their side? She can preach immigration to Israel (for Arabs and Africans) but the revealing part is that she never has, and probably never will.

The crimes of the NKVD is not in doubt, never has. You're free to deny it, though!

FRANZ

Nathan said...

Why does he find it so hard to answer a simple question?

Franz Holtzhäuser said...

Well, ok, just to entertain you; no it is not 'hurtful' not having this Geller slimebag on my side. Satisfied now, Nathan?

FRANZ

Jason Myers said...

"The crimes of the NKVD is not in doubt, never has. You're free to deny it, though!"

Actually poor Franz, several countries which punish any denial of the Holocaust also punish the similar denial of communist atrocities. See for instance Poland, the Czech republic, and Hungary.

And communist crimes are as much in doubt amongst reasonable minds as the Holocaust.

Franz Holtzhäuser said...

Give me an specific example of somebody convicted and sent to prison for doubting Soviet crimes with, references.
FRANZ