Monday, September 03, 2012

Friedrich Paul Berg yelled for "PHOTOS photos of gassing victims"...

.... and I showed him some.



See my posts of Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:56 pm and Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:50 am on the reborn RODOH forum.

The final part of the last of these posts is transcribed below.

As concerns autopsies performed by the Soviets on people killed in gas vans, I have the following information transcribed here (emphases added):
Morning Session, 17 December, 1943.
Findings of the Commission of Medico-legal Experts:
[...]
n the 13 grave-pits opened in Kharkov and its immediate vicinity were found a huge number of corpses. In most graves they lay in extreme disorder, fantastically intertwined, forming tangles of human bodies defying description. The corpses lay in such a manner that they can be said to have been dumped or heaped but not buried in common graves. In two pits in the Sokolniki forest park bodies were found lying in straight rows, face downward, arms bent at the elbow and hands pressed to faces or necks. All the bodies had bullet wounds through the heads. Such a position of the bodies was not accidental. It proves that the victims were forced to lie down face downward and were shot in that position. In the grave pits where the bodies lay and in places where the bodies had been burnt the medico-legal experts found articles of everyday use and personal effects, such as bags, sacks, knives, pots, mugs, spectacles, fasteners of women’s handbags, etc. The fact revealed by the investigation namely, that before being murdered Soviet citizens were stripped of their footwear, is fully confirmed by the medico-legal examinations: during exhumation the experts in most cases discovered naked or half-naked bodies.

In order to ascertain which Soviet citizens were exterminated and in what manner, the experts exhumed and examined 1,047 bodies in Kharkov and its environs. These included the bodies of 19 children and adolescents, 429 women and 599 men. The dead ranged in age from two to 70 years. The fact that the bodies of children, adolescents, women and old men as well as invalids were discovered in grave-pits with civilian clothes and articles of domestic use and personal effects on the bodies or near them, proves that the German fascist authorities exterminated Soviet citizens regardless of sex or age. On the other hand, the fact that [on] the bodies of young and middle-age men were found clothes of military cut worn in the Red Army, also articles of military equipment (pots, mugs, belts, etc.) is evidence of Soviet war prisoners.

The extermination of Soviet people (civilians and war prisoners) was effected by means of poisoning with carbon monoxide, shooting, burning, and killing with blunt, hard and heavy instruments. All this has been established absolutely and irrefutably, by the material of the preliminary investigation, the Court proceedings, and proved by the medico-legal experts with scientific objectivity.

The depositions of the accused and the witnesses state that in various parts of the temporarily occupied territory of the U.S.S.R. the German fascist invaders used specially equipped large vans in the bodies of which Soviet citizens were murdered by exhaust gases containing carbon monoxide. The medico-legal experts proved this beyond doubt for the first time when examining bodies exhumed in the town of Krasnodar and in its vicinity. At the same time the presence of carbon monoxide was irrefutably established by a combination of physiological, chemical and spectroscopic tests of the blood in the tissues and organs of the corpses. The same method of poisoning with carbon monoxide as was used in Krasnodar has been proved by medico-legal examination of some of the bodies exhumed in Kharkov.

The lorry which came to be known as the gas van or murder van, designed to exterminate people inside its air-tight body by means of exhaust gases, must be regarded as a mechanical method for the simultaneous poisoning of large groups of people.

Investigation and medico-legal examinations has established that in addition to [b]poisoning with carbon monoxide[/b], the Germans applied on a large scale, in Kharkov and its environs, mass shooting from automatic firearms, firing as a rule into the back of the head, the back of the neck and the spine. [...]

The above text mentions killing in gas vans at both Kharkov and Krasnodar. The stills from footage of the Drobitski Yar near Kharkov, captioned as showing people killed in gas vans or by shooting, I have already shown you. Below you find some exhumation photos taken in the Krasnodar area, which possibly also show the corpses of people killed in gas vans. These photos are included in my blog 22 June 1941:





This additional photo, which I didn't include in the aforementioned collection, is captioned "Krasnodar, USSR, Bodies of children gassed to death with carbon monoxide, after the liberation":



I'm sure you're eager to dismiss this evidence as having been manipulated by the Soviets for propaganda purposes. So let's have a look at some evidence regarding the use of gas vans in the Krasnodar region that the Soviets couldn't possibly have manipulated. The following is my translation of an excerpt from the Munich Court of Assizes' judgment against members of Einsatzkommando 10a dated 14 July 1942 (you'll find a trial summary here under "Jeissk"), which I expect to have been essentially based on testimonies provided to this West German court or to other West German criminal justice authorities by the trial's defendants and other eyewitnesses to these killings. The excerpt, which is quoted on pp. 102-104 of Kogon, Langbein, Rückerl et al (editors), Nationalsozialistische Massentötungen durch Giftgas, is about the murder of handicapped children from an asylum at Jeissk (Eysk), a town by the Sea of Azov 247 km away from Krasnodar:


After the capture of the city of Krasnodar by German troops on 9.8.1942, Einsatzkommando 10a followed into this city. To the city of Jeissk (Eysk) on the eastern shore of the Sea of Azov, which also had been captured on 9.8.1942, a partial detachment commanded by the defendant Trimborn was sent. On 8.10.1942 this partial detachment received a delegation from Krasnodar including the defendant Dr. Görz. This delegation brought the >gas van< and the order to kill the children of the asylum located in area Shtsherbinovskaya-Barikadnaya-Budyenny Street. This children’s asylum was located by the city and had several buildings. In the buildings of the central complex there were moronic and imbecilic children, in the building at the corner of Shtsherbinovskaya and Gogol Street there were physically handicapped and also healthy children, in the building at Budyenny Streret there were bedridden sick children (suffering from hydrocephaly). The children were aged between about three and about seventeen years.
The >gas van< or – as the Russians called it – the >soul killer< was a large box van. On the outside walls mock windows had been painted, at the back there was a double door sealing the box construction. The box structure was lined inside with white sheet metal and had grates lying on the floor. With the help of a hose the motor exhaust could be introduced into the box structure from below.
To execute the order brought from Krasnodar, the mentioned delegation together with members of the partial detachment based in Jeissk went to the mentioned children’s asylum on 9 October 1942 around 16 or 17 hours in the afternoon. The gas van was first driven into the yard of the building at the corner of Shtsherbinovskaya and Gogol Street. Thereafter the building was surrounded by several men and secured against an eventual escape of the children.
The head of the asylum’s education department, Galina Kotshubinskaya, and the children were told that the children were to be taken to Krasnodar for medical treatment. The headmistress, who – like the children – knew from newspapers that the Germans killed people with the >soul killer< – objected to the uploading of the children, but without success.
The children were rounded up in the yard. Smaller children and such who could not move without assistance were carried out of the building. Nurses from the asylum also helped in doing this, with tears in their eyes. When, however, some of the children resisted, started screaming and tried to run away, they were caught, hit or grabbed by their arms and legs, carried to the van and thrown into the same. Two men dragged Volodya Goncharov, a thirteen-year-old pioneer, out of the building to the van, by his legs and with his head down.
The crying and screaming children eventually also lay on top of each other in the gas van's box structure. When the box was full, the double door was closed, and the van took off. In their death panic, caused already by the constriction and seclusion of the room they were in, the children screamed and banged on the walls of the box. After some time the carbon monoxide introduced into the box with the exhaust showed its first effects. At least some of the children had severe feelings of choking. Their heart beat faster and they felt nausea, buzzing in their eyes, pounding in their temples and pain in the forehead and temple areas. As the poisoning progressed they felt sickness and urge to vomit, until they were assailed by cramps, vomited, urinated, defecated and finally died from brain paralysis due to lack of oxygen.
The children did not all die at the same time. While some of them already showed severe symptoms of poisoning, others witnessed the death struggle with its cramps, vomiting, urination and defecation while still relatively conscious, which considerably increased their death panic and their torments.
The dead children, intertwined due to their death struggle, were finally unloaded into an anti-tank ditch near the city. Thereafter, still on the same day, the bedridden sick children from the building at Budyenny Street were taken to the gas van and poisoned.

The picture below (published in the document collection »Gott mit uns« Der deutsche Vernichtungskrieg im Osten 1939 – 1945, edited by Ernst Klee e Willi Dressen, 1989 S. Fischer Verlag GmbH, Frankfurt am Main, Germany), shows some of the children from the Jeissk (Eysk) children’s asylum gassed on 9 October 1942:



One of the children, shown below in a photo from the same collection, was named Misha:




These children were what Nazis like Fredo would call "Untermenschen" (subhumans), in two respects: they were handicapped, and they were racially inferior Slavs.


Note, 29.03.2013: the date of the Munich Court of Assizes' judgment against members of Einsatzkommando 10a was not 14 July 1942, of course. It was 14 July 1972.

36 comments:

Hans said...

Roberto,

you can also remind Berg that the possibility of taken photographs of gassing victims was already restricted by explicit prohibition to take photos of executions for SS personell, see

http://books.google.de/books?id=oFIJwgev99EC&pg=PA160#v=onepage&q&f=false

Roberto Muehlenkamp said...

Thanks, Hans.

I have done so here.

Franz Holtzhäuser said...

Hi,

The text makes reference to "medico-legal experts" opinion and deduction.
Where can one find their report(s) on this? Please provide them.
I know you'll say Berg only wished for photos, but without the additional material these photographs are worth nothing.
They will still be worth nothing with the additional report(s) though, unless the investigation of these alleged crimes were not attended by a international shore of various experts in this field who were there to take part in the process.
So, produce these report(s) and possibly a explanatory paper of some sort on the methodology of the investigation.

Hans, Robero and Sergey have a lot of trust for Soviet Extraordinary State Commissions and suchlike. But without evidence for assertions made by such commissions their conclusions are just as worthless as the paper it was printed on.

It certainly is revealing that for the whole time you guys have propagated your theories against the Germans, that is to say - for a lot of years, you've never been able to actually produce convincing evidence for your theories.
Sure, you have veritabel scum such as Zisblatt and Weasel talking for you - but their stories are crude, malignant hate mixed with mental illness (Irene must have something very wrong with her mental health, that's for sure).
.

Bye,

FRANZ H.

Nathan said...

Hmm... Mr. Konsl seems to have popped a vein.

-Unless the investigation of these alleged crimes were not attended by an international shore of experts-
I can think of a lot of crime investigations that weren't attended by an international "shore" of experts:
- the mass rape of German women by the Soviets whom Mr. Konsl hate so much. I presume that he gives the open statements of Soviet soldiers about such rapes the same weight he gives the Soviets' medical expert's reports.
- various other killings carried out by the soviets, other than Katyn
- the killing of German civilians, committed in the process of deporting them from territories annexed from Germany
- the conditions in the gulags
Never mind the fact that the "investigations" were not attended to by international experts- they weren't even investigated at all. No doubt, by his reasoning, these conslusions are worthless.

- their stories are crude, malignant hate mixed with mental illness-
Mr. Konsl should look in the mirror: he dismisses the reports and photographs of the Soviet extraordinary commission based on nothing but his own prejudice. He does not offer any of his own positive evidence. Indeed ; he is so full of hate that he is desperately clinging to the strawmen by the names of Zisblatt and Weasel, while conveniently ignoring that this very blog has exposed Ms. Zisblatt, and that no serious historian even uses her and Mr. Wiesel as sources.

Franz Holtzhäuser said...

We're not speaking of Soviet crimes here. If the alleged Holocaust was as significant as Katyn - where's the evidence for it? Nobody doubts or denies Katyn, but for some reason a constant growing number of individuals doubt, deny or simply won't believe in this so-called Holocaust story. That certainly is interesting, isn't it?
It's also not against the law to deny Katyn, it's not against the law to deny that the Soviet soldiers raped anybody who came in their way, it's not against the law to deny their horrible atrocities against civilians (even their own people).

You appear to have invested in a fraudulent belief.

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Franz Holtzhäuser said...

Hi,

I'm sorry for the many comments. There was a fault in your system.

Best wishes,
FRANZ.

Franz Holtzhäuser said...

Nathan,

I was not aware that Holocaust Survivor Irene Zisblatt and Nobel Prize Winner Elie Wiesel had been unmasked and denounced here by these gentlemen.

Can you provide the link? Do you also denounce the two persons I mentioned in the beginning?

Regards,
FRANZ.

Nathan said...

Wow....ten replies. Who'd have thought that little old me could've given Mr Konsl so much distress ;)

- for some reason a constant "growing" number of individuals doubt, deny or simply won't believe In this so called holocaust story. Isn't that interesting-
Circular logic ;)

Nathan said...

- you appear to have invested in a fraudulent belief-
Please, look in a mirror :)

Franz Holtzhäuser said...
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Franz Holtzhäuser said...

Nathan,

Thanks for your responses. I look in the mirror every morning when I wash my face.
If the Germans were out to mass murder and exterminate all the Jews they could get their hands on why in the name of logic did Perec Zylberberg survive and not only survive, the man wrote memoirs about his adventures and probably made money on it as well (not including all benefits that already is a given for a Holocaust Survivor!) - tell me, why did the Germans put this man on a trip all over Europe, in a plethora of work camps, ghettos and labour brigades then back to Germany and then put on a journey to Czecho-Slovakia with the destination: beautiful Theresienstadt.
If they had genocidal intents this man -- with the efficiency that engulfs Germans -- would be shoved right into those "gas chambers" you Holocaust Believers and Holocaust Enforcers always howl so much about!

Oh as for me being excited and making a lot of replies: the system which this blog is hosted on must have been in error because I only posted the ones with text in them. It was not an error on my part, as I say.

That's it.

Best wishes,
FRANZ.

Roberto Lucena said...

"If the Germans were out to mass murder and exterminate all the Jews they could get their hands on why in the name of logic did Perec Zylberberg survive and not only survive"

Germany was controlled by the Nazi party. Who carried out the extermination was the party that controlled that country, I say it not to eliminate the 'collective guilt' for the genocide but you purposely put Germans as synonymous of Nazis "ignoring" that there was a racist totalitarian regime promoting this genocide. Nazis wanted to liquidate the Jews of Europe, but they lost the war and this was the reason that prevented the Nazis from achieving their goal.

Roberto Lucena said...

"If they had genocidal intents this man -- with the efficiency that engulfs Germans -- would be shoved right into those "gas chambers" you Holocaust Believers and Holocaust Enforcers always howl so much about!"

The fact this man has survived proves that other people haven't die? Is that your "logic"? Do you doubt so tightly that a mechanism of poisoning can't to kill people? What's so absurd in the idea of gas chambers as a mechanism for mass murder? "Revisionists" often are evasive when we make simple questions.

Franz Holtzhäuser said...

Robero,

I also wrote this, but you ignored it: tell me, why did the Germans put this man on a trip all over Europe, in a plethora of work camps, ghettos and labour brigades then back to Germany and then put on a journey to Czecho-Slovakia with the destination of beautiful Theresienstadt if the intention was to shove all Jews into alleged "gas chambers", some which were underground cellars, cold and damp and some which were like old sheds and had car motors as the murder weapon or in some cases even Russian submarine engines (I chuckle always)? It must have been a miracle, huh.

Nathan said...

- Robero -

Roberto Lucena seems to have ticked Mr. Andersson off, too. So much that he can't even spell his name properly ;)

- if the intention was to shove all Jews into alleged "gas chambers", -

Bolded words are Straw Men.


- e underground cellars, cold and damp and some which were like old sheds and had car motors as the murder weapon or in some cases even Russian submarine engines (I chuckle always)? It must have been a miracle, huh.-

Appeal to incredulity, and more straw men.

Franz Holtzhäuser said...

Nathan,

I don't get what you're saying, my dear friend. Are you saying that the intention was not to exterminate every Jew they could get their hands on according to a strict plan, quite systematic? This is what the Holocaust Enforcers have told me.
They changed their minds again? Duh, I can't keep up with this horseshit no more.

And your "incredulity" remark? I am just repeating what Jews say the Germans did to them. That's incredulity? I agree - but certainly not on my part since it is not myself who makes these claims. They have been made by revengeful Jews.
It's hardly my fault that they come up with such stupid accusations, is it?

Have a fine day Nathan.

Best wishes,
FRANZ.

Roberto Muehlenkamp said...

Glad to see I made you freak out again, Mr. "I'm not Jonathan Andersson" aka "Franz Holtzhäuser" aka "kOnsl".

You'll have to deal with a simple fact, which is that Soviet investigation reports about mass murders at places like Krasnodar and Kharkov, which might otherwise be suspect, are corroborated by evidence on which the Soviets couldn't possibly have had any influence, evidence that satisfied independent courts of law in the German Federal Republic. We know that the Soviets jinxed their Katyn investigation because all evidence independent of the Soviets pointed to them as the killers, you see. But in the killings addressed in this blog, both Soviet-controlled evidence and evidence not controlled by the Soviets pointed to your Nazi heroes as the killers.

And you'll have to get used to the fact that it's not Mr. "I'm not Jonathan Andersson" aka "Frantz Holtzhäuser" aka "kOnsl" who gets to determine what is conclusive evidence and what is not.

And with the fact that mass crimes are usually investigated not by international commissions of various experts, but by the criminal justice authorities of the countries in which they were committed (the USSR, in this case) or whose nationals the perpetrators are (the German Federal Republic, in this case). That applies to the crimes of your Nazi heroes as it does to the almost all the crimes of your Soviet black beasts (except for the Katyn and Vinnitsa massacres). To the extent that Soviet crimes were subject to criminal investigations at all, that is.

Roberto Muehlenkamp said...

PS:

Did you even notice, "Franz", that the kids from the Jeissk/Eysk asylum murdered by your heroes were not Jews?

They were some of the (by my comparatively conservative estimate) 7.1 to 7.9 million non-Jews murdered by Nazi Germany. Lots of "White" people among them. Or are Slavs also not "White"?

Franz Holtzhäuser said...

Robero,

You have failed my requests. I take this as a token of you not being able to produce what was asked from you.
This will probably not halt you from cutting and pasting in the future, it was however gratifying to learn that you spread fakery around you like a typical American trash-person keeps blowing smoke.
I never freak out. I never stress. People say I'm very mellow.

I am not sure what your intention is by lashing out like you do. Aren't you old enough to behave like a mature person should be in your age? Good grief man.

Faithfully,
FRANZ.

Franz Holtzhäuser said...

Roberto,

I am not wasting more of my time with you.
PS: I have nothing against you personally, except for one thing. You appear to be a real sleazeball but I am convinced that your behaviour must be because of mental illness of some form.
Pop a lyrica or two, eh? Get your energy up ;-)

Best wishes,
FRANZ.

Nathan said...

Wow, so many personal insults from K0nsl/Mr.Andersson/Franz. Roberto must've really ticked him off ;)

- Are you saying that the intention was not to exterminate every Jew they could get their hands on according to a strict plan, quite systematic? -

Even more straw men.

- This is what the Holocaust Enforcers have told me. -

"Holocaust enforcers". Another straw man, but a cute one. Thanks, Mr. K0nsl, I'll take it ;)

- I am just repeating what Jews say the Germans did to them. That's incredulity? I agree - but certainly not on my part since it is not myself who makes these claims. They have been made by revengeful Jews.-

Bolded words are Straw men. And, it's nice to see Mr. K0nsl projecting his own fallacies ;)

Don't forget your medication :)

Roberto Muehlenkamp said...

«You have failed my requests
I take this as a token of you not being able to produce what was asked from you.»

Which of them exactly?

And what's supposed to make them relevant?

«This will probably not halt you from cutting and pasting in the future, it was however gratifying to learn that you spread fakery around you like a typical American trash-person keeps blowing smoke.»

What "fakery"?

I know you're hysterical enough to yell "fakery" whenever confronted with evidence you don't like, but in the absence to any indication of fakery, that's just another way to make a fool of yourself.

«I never freak out. I never stress. People say I'm very mellow.»

Yeah, it shows. :-)

«I am not sure what your intention is by lashing out like you do.»

Me, lashing out? I'd say that's exactly what you've been doing throughout your comments.

«Aren't you old enough to behave like a mature person should be in your age? Good grief man.»

If you want to see an immature individual, look in the mirror.

Roberto Muehlenkamp said...

«I am not wasting more of my time with you.»

What, you think your time is precious? That's what I would call delusions of adequacy.

«PS: I have nothing against you personally, except for one thing. You appear to be a real sleazeball but I am convinced that your behaviour must be because of mental illness of some form.
Pop a lyrica or two, eh? Get your energy up ;-)»

And that's what I would call self-projection.

Sir Humphrey Appleby said...

It is always amazing how meticulous the Nazis where in documenting their crimes. It's just as amazing people deny the reality of what happened.

Sir Humphrey Appleby said...

It is always amazing how meticulous the Nazis where in documenting their crimes. It's just as amazing people deny the reality of what happened.

Sir Humphrey Appleby said...

It is always amazing how meticulous the Nazis where in documenting their crimes. It's just as amazing people deny the reality of what happened.

BTW the Capthca your using is almost impossible to get right so far i ahve tried 12 times to post a comment

Sir Humphrey Appleby said...

It is always amazing how meticulous the Nazis where in documenting their crimes. It's just as amazing people deny the reality of what happened.

Call me, "Dave." said...

Mr. Lucena, do tell the maniac that nexgen is taking no part whatsoever in this latest rodoh. Nor will I. Certainly not as any sort of moderator as blogbuster has repeatedly idiotically and absurdly claimed either. Nor as a member.

Whatever this extraordinary individual may "claim" about any alleged active involvement of mine within any sort of new rodoh whatsoever administered by SSmith and "depthcheck," he is totally wrong.

I am NOT "depthcheck," and am quite frankly surprised that the moderator and or the Lord Hobbes Scott Smith himself have not directly refuted this latest rubbish.

Perhaps their silence upon the matter means that they too think that the membership and readers should view anything that this individual at the new forum posts with a massively huge pinch of salt.

That is all.

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