Friday, June 22, 2012

The usual "Revisionist" victory dancing ...

... started right after the debate between Friedrich Berg and me on Deanna Spingola's radio show.



First to crow victory was Steven Willow.

SW:
Just heard the debate and can honestly state that it was a resounding defeat for the forces of the Hoax and a triumph for Mr Berg.


SW's capacity for wishful thinking is amazing, especially considering Berg's puny efforts to explain where the "Hoax" is supposed to have come from. IIRC he babbled something about Polish courts inducing witnesses to tell lies. Apart from the fact that he didn't manage to demonstrate that any witness to homicidal gassings lied (except maybe for exaggeration-prone Gerstein, whose testimony, as I pointed out, is only used by historians insofar as corroborated by more objective witnesses like Pfannenstiel and Schluch), Polish criminal justice authorities cannot have been that prone to influencing depositions by witnesses and suspects if one looks at, for instance, the highly inconvenient information provided to them by Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Höss, who had the cheek to tell them that the 4 million estimate of people killed at Auschwitz-Birkenau (endorsed by Poland until the fall of the Iron Curtain) was way above the mark. The statments of Höss in the document The Final Solution of the Jewish Question in Auschwitz read as follows in Constantine FitzGibbon's translation (Commandant of Auschwitz, pp. 193-194, emphasis added):

I myself never knew the total number and I have nothing to help me make an estimate of it.
I can only remember the figure involved in the larger actions, which were repeated to me by Eichmann or his deputies.
From Upper Silesia and Polish territory under German rule … 250,000
Germany and Theresienstadt … 100,000
Holland … 95,000
Belgium … 20,000
France … 110,000
Greece … 65,000
Hungary … 400,000
Slovakia … 90,000
I can no longer remember the figures for the smaller actions, but they were insignificant in comparison with the numbers given above.
I regard a total of two and a half millions as far too high. Even Auschwitz had limits to its destructive possibilities.
Figures given by former prisoners are figments of the imagination and lack any foundation.


Mr. Willow (or Mr. Berg) may want to explain why the Poles allowed Höss to throw in their face an Auschwitz death toll figure of little more than a million and call the much higher figure they maintained "figments of the imagination" that "lack any foundation", if they were inclined to make those they interrogated tell them what they wanted to hear.

Pfannenstiel and Schluch testified before criminal justice authorities of the German Federal Republic, by the way. And Gerstein submitted his reports in French captivity, IIRC. All fanatics bent on denigrating poor Nazi Germany, in Berg's hollow fantasies. And working in coordination with the supposed Polish fanatics, at a time when the Iron Curtain was going up or long in place. Yeah, sure.

SW
Mr Berg raised the critical point that jews have used the excuse that the dead must not be disturbed in their eternal rest to justify the namby pamby exploration of so called mass graves at Sobibor.


Looks like we have here another self-appointed archaeologist like Berg, who thinks he gets to decide what is a proper and what is a "namby pamby" archaeological investigation. As concerns the supposed "excuse" used by "jews" (note the spelling), SW is invited to read the blog Belzec Mass Graves and Archaeology - Continuation (1), where I discuss with Carlo Mattogno under which conditions dead bodies may be disturbed according to halakhah. Archaeological investigation is none of them. And SW's derisive blather doesn't help him over the fact that Prof. Andrzej Kola's "namby pamby" core drilling in 2001 found 7 grave pits containing human remains (including whole corpses in wax-fat transformation at the bottom of 4 gravea), which had a total volume of about 12,750 cubic meters. The largest grave had about 6,800 cubic meters of space available for burial. As I pointed out here, certain "Revisionists" apparently expect people to believe that the SS made such enormous graves because they liked to keep their Jewish labor force digging all the time, or because they enjoyed the healthy exercise themselves or were so fond of handling excavators that they made enormous graves just for the fun of it.

SW
Roberto Muehlenkamp hid behind this ruse, too, as Mr Berg had him cornered around the issue that there are plenty of jews who were shipped to AR camps only to be discovered among the sea of happy survivors who owe their lives to kind treatment at these camps.


Actually I pointed out to Berg that, besides the graves identified by archaeologists at Bełżec and Sobibór being large enough to accomodate hundreds of thousands of bodies, there is documentary evidence whereby 1,274,166 Jews were shipped to the Aktion Reinhard camps in 1942 alone. With this many deportees to account for just in 1942, and with all other documentary as well as eyewitness evidence pointing to the murder of these people, the best evidence in support of his case that Berg could offer was ... Mrs. Zelda Gordon, a single and moreover dubious witness who, IIRC, claimed to have been taken from Treblinka to Majdanek. If those camps had really been transit camps en route to the Nazi-occupied Soviet territories, Berg wouldn't have been reduced to his lame blather about Zelda Gordon (plus "countless other witnesses" he quickly dreamed up so Zelda wouldn't be so lonely). He would be wading in solid documentary and abundant eyewitness evidence of the kind mentioned in my Challenge to Supporters of the Revisionist Transit Camp Theory. Care to take the challenge, Steve? And what about you, Mr. Berg? Berg had me "cornered", yeah. Sweet dreams, Steve.

As concerns mass grave investigations, I suggest that Steve and Berg watch this clip expecially the sequences from 3:23 to 4:30. And here they may find further information about how Father Desbois established that the skeletons he found at Busk were of local Jews murdered by the Nazis (and not, as Berg tried to insinuate, victims of Soviet killings). Further images of Jews and others murdered by the Nazis can be found in the blogs collected here. Careful, some of the images are quite graphic ("Revisionists", as is well known, tend to be sensitive people).

Next victory dance, please.

Oh, here is Fredo himself:

I did make the point that if one went along with the weird notion that gravesites of Jews should never be opened, then every site containing unknown human remains anywhere would have to be kept sealed as well for fear that some of the dead might be Jews.


Is that showpiece of silliness supposed to be a "point"?

Religious-minded Jews might object to excavations if they have reasons to believe that Jewish burial laws might be violated, but unless they can provide such reasons they should be wise enough to shut up. And unearthing corpses within the scope of criminal investigation would fall under "public need" and thus be allowed under halakhah, see the blog Belzec Mass Graves and Archaeology - Continuation (1). Archaeological investigation apparently does not qualify as an exception, however.

I was most surprised by Muehlenkamps's firm but silly belief that there was absolutely no shortage of gasoline in Germany in 1942 and at other times. What war had he been reading about?


A shoddy misrepresentation of my point, which was that in 1942 the German military (and hence the SS for its extermination work, which was considered part of the war effort) had sufficient gasoline at its disposal. I was referring to what I had written in the blog Mattogno, Graf & Kues on Aktion Reinhard(t) Cremation (2):

Would the RSHA have a problem with granting Globocnik’s request? Hardly so, considering what is known about the amount of motor gasoline (Vergaserkraftstoff) delivered monthly to the General Government. About 6 million liters were delivered in July 1942 alone, thereof 2,935 t for civilian authorities and 3,612 t for military authorities[148]. German authorities didn’t consider it a waste to spend 68,000 liters of gasoline within 13 days[149] to burn the bodies of civilian air raid victims at Dresden in February/March 1945, at a time when the Reich had lost almost all of its petrol resources and its war machine was bogging down for lack of fuel. Why should they have minded allotting higher amounts of gasoline[150] to a state project of vital importance like the extermination of a minority of perceived dangerous subversives and useless eaters harmful to Germany, and that moreover at a time when the Third Reich still had access to its main sources of petrol, especially the Romanian oilfields? The daily petrol requirements of a single armored regiment were higher than those of corpse cremation at Sobibór if carried out with petrol as the main combustion agent, and even the daily requirements of Treblinka shown in Table 3.23 would have been below those of the 21st Panzer Division[151]. Globocnik’s request would thus have hardly been outrageous. Who claims that the Third Reich could not have "wasted" gasoline or other liquid fuels "in such a manner" fails to take into account Nazi Germany’s overall fuel resources and expenditure at the time on the one hand and the importance that the Nazis gave to this particular project on the other.


I look forward to Fredo parading some more of his strawman arguments.

The poster after Berg did something useful: he posted a link to the debate's recording.

Update, 23.06.2012: Fredo's post commented above was so far followed by some inane mumblings from "haarp", a more intelligent comment (for a "Revisionist") from blake121666, an amusing reply thereto by the fervent (and not very bright) true believer Steven Willow, and some more bigmouthed bluster from Berg himself.
Not being allowed to respond to these loads of rubbish (blake is just the one-eyed among the blind) on the CODOH forum, and so as not to make this blog too long, I shall comment the aforementioned posts and those that may follow on the thread A Radio Challenge of the Skeptics Society Forum, to which Berg has been invited. The invitation is hereby extended to the aforementioned members of Berg's cheering crowd, though I doubt they will accept it. Berg may not be afraid of open debate, but most CODOH "Revisionists" prefer to shoot the bull in Jonnie Hargis' warm and cozy Führerbunker.

Update, 24.06.2012:
On the Skeptics Society Forum, see posts # 135 and # 136 of the thread A Radio Challenge.
On the "CODOH Revisionist Forum", the crowd of cheering morons has been joined by "Moderator" (obviously the deplorable Jonnie "Hannover" Hargis, judging by the gibbering hatred of my humble person that transpires from his back-slapping of Berg) and my old friend Wilfried "neugierig" Heink, aka the Waldheini.
I'll have some fun with these fellows and their predecessors (and eventual successors) tomorrow, as time permits.

Update, 27.06.2012:
On the Skeptics Society Forum, see posts # 150, # 151, # 152, # 153 and # 156 of the thread A Radio Challenge.

Update, 02.07.2012:
See post # 160 on the Skeptics Society Forum. No further updates over the weekend because I was busy with this other guy and doing more pleasant things, such as watching my team win the Euro Football Championship. But my old friend Fredo is not forgotten.

Update, 05.07.2012:
See post # 161 on the Skeptics Society Forum.

Update, 08.07.2012:
See post # 162 on the Skeptics Society Forum.

Update, 22.07.2012:
Some self-projecting pep-talk from poor attention-seeking Fredo, who hasn't yet even tried to answer my follow-up questions, which I asked after providing a comprehensive answer to Berg's follow-up questions.
A month having passed since our friendly conversation on Deanna Spingola's radio show, I thus feel tempted to paraphrase the question that Georgi Dimitroff reportedly asked Göring at the Reichstag Fire Trial in 1933 (William Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, Simon & Schuster New York 1960, p. 193):
Are you afraid of my questions, Mr. "Hoaxbuster"?
And by the way, why don't you make the radio debate's transcript yourself, instead of asking one of your coreligionists to do that for you?

34 comments:

Unknown said...

Oh, god, why am I listening to this? Is this Berg mentally retarded? No, I mean really, why is it, that of all conspiracy whack jobs holocaust deniers seem to be the dumbest.

"This didn't happen, because I would have done it better."
Yeah, congratulations, you are a total moron. Please kill yourself with your special fuel.

Unknown said...

Pretty pathetic on your part.

We're just supposed to take the Jew's word for it that millions of Jews are under the ground because of the insane Jew belief that an invisible man in the sky - "Yahweh" doesn't want the graves investigated?

A true archaeological "DIG" would either destroy revisionism forever, or would destroy the state of Israel, and the worldwide Jew power structure.

Don't want to take the chance? What do you have to hide?

Show the remains of up to 1,000,000 at Treblinka, shut up those such as Berg, Ahmadinejad, etc.

A case based on hearsay and no TRUE forensic archaeological investigation?

If a serial killer kills 100 jews and buries them in their backyard, we aren't supposed to dig, uncover the bodies, or even investigate?

Yea right!

Roberto Muehlenkamp said...

«Pretty pathetic on your part.»

"Revisionist" brains are structured differently from those of other people, which keeps them from realizing what nonsense they produce.

Attacking the Soviet Union was the most stupid thing Nazi Germany could possibly have done, so they didn't do it.

Trying to convert the Me 262 jet fighter into a bomber instead of using it as a fighter plane right away was also a very stupid thing to do, so they didn't do that either.

Duh!

«We're just supposed to take the Jew's word for it that millions of Jews are under the ground because of the insane Jew belief that an invisible man in the sky - "Yahweh" doesn't want the graves investigated?»

No, we're supposed to accept that millions of murdered Jews lie buried in Eastern Europe because that's what all known documentary, eyewitness and demographic evidence tells us, not to mention the physical evidence discovered in Soviet and Polish crime site investigations and lately by (non-Jewish) archaeologista and other researchers. How about taking a look at some of that evidence? Look up the blogs labeled "graves" and "photographs". Careful with the photos, some of them may hurt your tender feelings.

«A true archaeological "DIG" would either destroy revisionism forever, or would destroy the state of Israel, and the worldwide Jew power structure.»

What makes you think you get to determine what is a «true archaeological "dig"» and what is not? Are you an archaeologist?

And what makes you think that anyone - other than a couple of idealists like myself - wants to get rid of you beautiful people? For organizations like the ADL, the SWC and perhaps also the USHMM you are useful idiots that they can point out as bogeymen to justify their existence and their calls for donations. The last thing these institutions want is to destroy "Revisionism".

Thanks for the crap about Israel and the "Jews power structure", by the way. I like "Revisionists" who admit to being brainless Jew-haters.

«Don't want to take the chance?»

I'd love to, but I don't have the means.

«What do you have to hide?»

Me, nothing. The ADL, SWC and USHMM folks, also nothing. But they have something to lose: the "Revisionist" bogeymen they can point to as they reason why they must continue to exist and be funded.

«Show the remains of up to 1,000,000 at Treblinka, shut up those such as Berg, Ahmadinejad, etc.»

I'd love to, but the guys who'd have the means to do so don't want to lose their enemy. Besides, those Jewish burial laws are no mere pretext. They do exist, as I mentioned here.

Roberto Muehlenkamp said...

«A case based on hearsay and no TRUE forensic archaeological investigation?»

No, my dear ignorant friend. A case based on all known eyewitness, documentary and demographic evidence, plus forensic investigations carried out mainly by Soviets and Poles, plus recent archaeological investigations and other research that have further corroborated the other evidence. What have jokers got to show for your "Hoax" claim? Nothing. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

«If a serial killer kills 100 jews and buries them in their backyard, we aren't supposed to dig, uncover the bodies, or even investigate?»

Not if the serial killer has confessed to his crimes, the same have been further proven by eyewitness, photographic and/or other evidence, and one cannot expect to identify the victims for the benefit of relatives or the relatives have been murdered themselves. That's what we have as concerns the Nazi genocide of the Jews, among many other mass crimes including such that, I am sure, you don't profess the slightest "doubt" about. You do accept the mass crimes committed by them "Jewish" Bolsheviks as factual, don't you? And I'm sure you never demanded a "true archaelogical dig" to establish the factuality of those crimes.

I guess your predecessor was right. Of all conspiracy whack jobs, Holocaust deniers seem to be the dumbest.

Unknown said...

LOL

"Not if the serial killer has confessed to his crimes, the same have been further proven by eyewitness, photographic and/or other evidence...."

I confess, I killed 100 Jews.

Ever hear of the weirdo who claimed to kill Jean-Benet Ramsey? Or how about these guys?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/the-confessions/

"Confessions" under duress, "eyewitnesses" who are proven to be liars are not enough to prove the murder of 6 million Jews when the crime scenes and alleged mass graves still exist, and reasonable human beings have a right to question the most murderous, lying regime in human history, the Soviet Union's "investigations", especially after their dopey modifications to Auschwitz "gas chambers."

You sure like to tell us to trust Father Dubois, a braindead cult leader whose life work is teaching that Jews are magical creatures who part seas and walk on water. He finds bullet shells on a battlefield and claims Jews are under the ground, without any reasonable excavations. Yea, this guy is gonna tell the world the truth, when his life's work has been devoted to promoting Jewish supremacist myths.

No, revisionists are completely reasonable for asking for an actual archaeological excavation and NOT taking the lying, genocidal Soviet Union's word for it. OR the lying Jews, for that matter.

What do you have to hide? Maybe you Holocaust promoters can even find the murder weapon under the ground at Treblinka, if you're lucky it will be the non-existent captured Soviet submarine engine Eichmann spoke about after he was kidnapped, held in a booth and drugged up!

You can put it on display at The Holocaust Museum, the lil' sub engine that could...

Nathan said...

Nick Terry pointed it out before. The Soviets' investigation of places like Auschwitz and Treblinka were done anonymously, without the blaze of propaganda that surrounded Katyn. It was also a nondescript army unit that mostly carried out the investigations, as opposed to a known unit that did the Katyn investigations. Analogy fail.

The rest is nothing but hysterical, anti semitic horseshit. I look forward to listening to your "debate" with Berg, Roberto. You must have said all sorts of stuff to piss the anonymous dumbass above

Nathan said...

The only Soviet crime that was forensically investigated was Katyn. Nothing else. We don't know jack shit about the others. Since you accept the reality of the Soviet Union's crimes, maybe you can show us the physical evidence for them?

Roberto Muehlenkamp said...

«LOL

"Not if the serial killer has confessed to his crimes, the same have been further proven by eyewitness, photographic and/or other evidence...."

I confess, I killed 100 Jews.

Ever hear of the weirdo who claimed to kill Jean-Benet Ramsey? Or how about these guys?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/the-confessions/

"Confessions" under duress,»

Let's see how many confessions the bigmouth can demonstrate to have been made under duress. If he should come up with Rudolf Höss, I have a surprise for him.

« "eyewitnesses" who are proven to be liars»

Let's see how many out of hundreds of eyewitnesses to mass killings at extermination camps, and thousands of eyewitnesses overall, the bigmouth can prove to have been liars.

«are not enough to prove the murder of 6 million Jews»

Nobody (except perhaps "Revisionist" knuckleheads) said that confessions and eyewitness testimonies are the only evidence to the Nazis' murder of 5 to 6 million Jews. There is also documentary and demographic as well as physical evidence.

«when the crime scenes and alleged mass graves still exist,»

The crimes scenes and mass graves do exist, were investigated mainly by Polish or Soviet criminal justice authorities after the war and have recently been or are being re-investigated by archaeologists and other researchers. And guess what, the postwar investigation results have been largely confirmed.

«and reasonable human beings have a right to question the most murderous, lying regime in human history, the Soviet Union's "investigations", especially after their dopey modifications to Auschwitz "gas chambers."»

What reasonable human beings do is check Soviet reports against evidence that the Soviets could have had no influence on, like testimonies of eyewitnesses interrogated and cross-examined before West German courts and documents found by the Western Allies. Where independent sources of evidence match, one can concluded that the Soviets did not lie. Where they don't match, the Soviets may have lied.

Roberto Muehlenkamp said...

«You sure like to tell us to trust Father Dubois, a braindead cult leader whose life work is teaching that Jews are magical creatures who part seas and walk on water.»

Looks like we have here another braindead rambler who considers namecalling an argument.

«He finds bullet shells on a battlefield and claims Jews are under the ground, without any reasonable excavations.»

He doesn't do just that, actually. He also interviews local witnesses (several independent of each other) about what happened at the site. And he checks the local eyewitness and physical evidence against evidence from Soviet investigations and evidence presented in West German trials. When all these independent sources of evidence match, he concludes that there is a mass grave at a certain place containing a certain number of victims of a certain mass killing. In other words, he establishes the establishes the events he concludes on beyond a reasonable doubt. Excavating the graves would provide another source of evidence, but that was allowed only in one specific case (Busk). However, with all other sources of evidence matching, excavation is not necessary to reach the right conclusion.

«Yea, this guy is gonna tell the world the truth, when his life's work has been devoted to promoting Jewish supremacist myths.»

I like the "Jewish supremacist" crap, one of Jonnie "Hannover" Hargis' favorites. Is that you, Jonnie?

«No, revisionists are completely reasonable for asking for an actual archaeological excavation and NOT taking the lying, genocidal Soviet Union's word for it. OR the lying Jews, for that matter.»

"Revisionists" might be reasonable if they asked that evidence of Soviet provenance is checked against independent of the Soviets. "Revisionists" are not being reasonable, however, if they postulate as an article of faith that the Soviets and Jews lied. They are just showing that they are a bunch of ideologically motivated fanatics interested in everything except historical facts.

«What do you have to hide? Maybe you Holocaust promoters can even find the murder weapon under the ground at Treblinka, if you're lucky it will be the non-existent captured Soviet submarine engine Eichmann spoke about after he was kidnapped, held in a booth and drugged up!»

Nobody has anything to hide outside your lunatic cloud-cuckoo-land. It's just that there are religiously motivated objections against disturbing the peace of the dead, which archaeologists must respect. With the currently available technology, however, this doesn't keep them from establishing the size and content of mass graves at Nazi killing sides. And the origin of these mass graves and of the people established therein can be established on hand of documentary and eyewitness evidence, which provide more information in this respect than digging possibly could.

«You can put it on display at The Holocaust Museum, the lil' sub engine that could...»

You could try making a relevant argument instead of talking shit. But then, I guess that's too much to ask of an average "Revisionist" sparrow-brain trying to let off steam to kick its frustration.

Roberto Muehlenkamp said...

«The only Soviet crime that was forensically investigated was Katyn. Nothing else. We don't know jack shit about the others. Since you accept the reality of the Soviet Union's crimes, maybe you can show us the physical evidence for them?»

How can you make such an outrageous demand? Don't you know that "Revisionist" standards of evidence only apply to the crimes attributed to their beloved Nazi Germany?

However, I would also like to see our bigmouth make us a list of mass crimes he accepts as factual, and then point out the forensic crime site investigations that led him to accept these mass crimes as factual. Chances are that he's also a Stalin-kisser and will argue that the Katyn killings are Stalin's only proven crime.

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Unknown said...

Elie Wiesel says there are two mass graves in Auschwitz, one for babies, one for adults, where the satanic Germans dumped Jews alive into flaming pits of fire.

In his memoirs, All Rivers Run to the Sea, he wonders if his eyes had deceived him, and says he extensively checked documentary evidence and, guess what, he was right!

Roberto, you know damn well that if Wiesel was brought to Auschwitz and pointed at the spot he claims the pits were, no two pits would exist.

Yet, according to you, skeptics are scum of the earth for questioning these liars and their non-existent mass graves.

As far as the Jew myth worshipper / cult leader Dubois, he didn't prove a thing beyond reasonable doubt, which is exactly WHY HE IS DOUBTED.

Is there reasonable doubt that a priest, funded by Rothschilds, who worships Jewish myth as reality, and makes a living promoting these myths, who is not qualified to lead any scientific investigation whatsoever, would claim bullet casings found on battlefields, along with decades old rumors and hearsay from village idiots is proof that millions of Jews are under the ground? Yes, there is reasonable doubt.

Roberto Muehlenkamp said...

Elie Wiesel says there are two mass graves in Auschwitz, one for babies, one for adults, where the satanic Germans dumped Jews alive into flaming pits of fire.

In his memoirs, All Rivers Run to the Sea, he wonders if his eyes had deceived him, and says he extensively checked documentary evidence and, guess what, he was right!

Roberto, you know damn well that if Wiesel was brought to Auschwitz and pointed at the spot he claims the pits were, no two pits would exist.

Yet, according to you, skeptics are scum of the earth for questioning these liars and their non-existent mass graves.


Who cares about Elie Wiesel? He's not needed to establish what happened or did not happen at AB. And yes, phony "skeptics" like you are scum. Skeptical is the last thing you are, and establishing historical facts is the last thing you care about.

As far as the Jew myth worshipper / cult leader Dubois, he didn't prove a thing beyond reasonable doubt, which is exactly WHY HE IS DOUBTED.

Only by unreasonable, ideologically motivated fanatics, who seem to believe that invective like "Jew myth worshipper/cult leader" is an argument.

Is there reasonable doubt that a priest, funded by Rothschilds, who worships Jewish myth as reality, and makes a living promoting these myths, who is not qualified to lead any scientific investigation whatsoever, would claim bullet casings found on battlefields, along with decades old rumors and hearsay from village idiots is proof that millions of Jews are under the ground? Yes, there is reasonable doubt.

Yes, there is reasonable doubt that you have any arguments against Father Desbois' methodology. Ad hominem crap and other rhetorical BS are obviously the best you can provide.

Eric Danielski said...

SHOW ME OR DRAW ME ROBERT FAURISSON!

Hard task for Unknown.

Roberto Lucena said...

"Elie Wiesel says there are two mass graves in Auschwitz, one for babies, one for adults, where the satanic Germans dumped Jews alive into flaming pits of fire."

Elie Wiesel isn't Holocaust historian. But it's funny to see how the "Revisionists" (Holocaust deniers) cite so much Wiesel for trying to "validate" their pseudoskepticism.

And again "Unkown Berg Willow" makes many groundless accusations, for claiming "victory" in CODOH with your peers, and pretends who doesn't see when it's questioned.

The Black Rabbit of Inlé said...

>>>> "such as watching my team win the Euro Football Championship."

I understood that you were German with some gypsy ancestry, who lives in Portugal. But the Spanish national football team, is *your team*!

>>>> "Mr. Willow (or Mr. Berg) may want to explain why the Poles allowed Höss to throw in their face an Auschwitz death toll figure of little more than a million and call the much higher figure they maintained "figments of the imagination" that "lack any foundation", if they were inclined to make those they interrogated tell them what they wanted to hear."

Please allow me to explain it, although I strongly suspect you know the reason already.

As you're well aware, but understandably didn't mention, the Central Jewish Historical Committee presented an expert report (dated March 25, 1947) to the Krakow-Auschwitz trial. As you know, it states that the number killed at Auschwitz in total, was 1,500,000.

The "Poles" as you refer to the Soviet puppet regime in the former Second Polish Republic, were evidently having reduced Auschwitz death tolls thrown "in their face" from all angles.

I've never personally checked (nor could I, lack of Yiddish) volume 1 of the Black Book, but press reports (in English) in the U.S., Canada, and BM Palestine on the BB vol.1's distribution in late Nov 1944—two months before the Auschwitz camps were liberated—all state that "six million Jews" had been murdered by the Nazis.

The Daily Register (Illinois), Nov 27, 1944, p.4
The Youngstown Vindicator (Ohio), Nov 27, 1944, p.3
The Pittsburgh Press, Nov 28, 1944, p.5
The Palestine Post, Nov 28, 1944, p.1
The Leader-Post (SK) - Nov 28, 1944, p.2

The English edition of the BB was published in NY in March 1946. It too states that 6,000,000 Jews were killed (pages 4, 241, and 396), but it also claims:

4,000,000 Jews were killed at Auschwitz (p.396)
1,135,000 Jews were killed at Chelmno (p.377)
750,000 Jews were killed at Majdanek (p.379)
3,000,000 "mainly Jews" were killed at Treblinka (p.407 & 400)

If we proceed with the "mainly" of 3,000,000, being 2,500,000 (more than justified by BB's account of deportations to Treblinka), then at just those four camps, 8,385,000 Jews were killed!

Something clearly had to be done.

Gassings at AB and the 4,000,000 figure had already be proven as "facts of common knowledge" before Hoess was even captured, at the Belsen and Tesch trials, as well as appearing in the IMT Indictment (Count III, Section VIII, Part A) and USSR-008 (signed by the Extraordinary State Commission's Nikolay Nilovich Burdenko and Mytropolitos Nikolai Ivanovitch Lomakin, who also brought us the *truth* about the Germans perpetrating the Katyn Massacre [USSR-54]. Heavy sarcasm implied).

I know of 5—you may know of more—former AB survivors who "independently" confirmed, between 8 months to over a year before Hoess was captured, that 4,000,000 were killed at AB (Tauber, Dragon, Bimko, Bendel and Heinrich Neumann) in an affidavit, under oath as a trial witness, or both.

Roberto, you've insinuated that Hoess, who previously confirmed in three separate Nuremberg affidavits (NO-1210, 3868-PS and NI-034)and several other transcribed interrogations, a brief signed confession, and confessions to Gerald Draper and Gustav Gilbert, that he gassed 2,500,000 (just Jews according to Gilbert) during his tenure as Auschwitz commandant, shocked the "Poles" with his unexpected reduction of the figures once he'd time to gather his thoughts. But as you know only too well, the reduce figures in his "memoirs", which he also maintained during his trial, just happened to corroborate the reduce figure being propagated by the Central Jewish Historical Committee in 1947.

TBC

The Black Rabbit of Inlé said...
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The Black Rabbit of Inlé said...
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The Black Rabbit of Inlé said...

CONT.

Frau Hoess and her children, had been held separately in a Schleswig-Holstein prison, the reluctant guests, for at least a week, of Her Majesty's occupying forces in Germany. British records prove that it was only by making threats to harm her children, were the British able to coax from Frau Hoess the whereabouts of her husband.

By the admittance of his captors, Hoess was subjected to numerous beatings, had whiskey forced into him, and violence was used to deprived him of sleep for days. There's no direct evidence that the British made threats to Hoess about harming his children (although there's evidence they use this tactic with his wife), but the "convergence of evidence" that this tactic was used on him is overwhelming.

The British record of interrogating Germans is a shameful one, and I say that as a Brit who doesn't support the Spanish football team, and whose grandfather fought in the WW2, whilst his wife and children were forced to evacuate their East London home to escape the Blitz.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2223831/How-Britain-tortured-Nazi-PoWs-The-horrifying-interrogation-methods-belie-proud-boast-fought-clean-war.html

Ian Baxter's biography of Hoess "The Commandant" (Maverick House, 2008) exposes that blatant falsehoods about Hoess' capture and interrogation were parade as fact by Robert Jan van Pelt and Richard Evans in their expert reports for the 2000 Irving vs. Penguin and Lipstadt trial. Baxter confirms what many have suspected for a long time, that Hoess neither spoke, nor read the English language (p.180), contradicting what Hoess supposedly wrote in his "memoirs". Not that Baxter has written the definitive account of Hoess' interrogation, no mention is made of the roles of Vera Atkins née Rosenberg, nor Major Gerald Draper.

In summary, yes, Hoess reduced his figure, but coincidentally, it coincided with, and corroborated a reduction by the Jewish group investigating Nazi atrocities in Poland.

You neglected to mention this.

Nathan said...

- Please allow me to explain it, although I strongly suspect you know the reason already.

As you're well aware, but understandably didn't mention, the Central Jewish Historical Committee presented an expert report (dated March 25, 1947) to the Krakow-Auschwitz trial. As you know, it states that the number killed at Auschwitz in total, was 1,500,000. -

Basic conspiraloonacy. Instead of looking at the evidence and arriving at a conclusion, you start with an a priori notion and twist the facts to fit the preconcieved notion. In this case, you're starting from the preconcieved notion that the Holocaust is a fabrication, then you automatically assume that all of the corrections to the death toll are not the results of different kinds of research as more evidence becomes available, but rather "desperate" efforts to keep the fabrication afloat. Evolution is a lie; The Devil planted the fossils there to test our faith :)

Oh, and in his memoirs, Hoess's numbers added to 1.1 million, not 1.5.

Can you prove that the CJHC's expert report mentioned a 1.5 mil figure because, as you claim, they were "paranoid" that the 4 M number couldn't stand up to scrutiny? Moreover, can you prove that Hoess was "pressured" into changing the numbers because of the CJHC's number? All you have are assumptions. Assuming makes an ASS out of U and ME.

- - The "Poles" as you refer to the Soviet puppet regime in the former Second Polish Republic, were evidently having reduced Auschwitz death tolls thrown "in their face" from all angles. 

-snip conspiratorial idiocy -

Something clearly had to be done. -

Doesn't explain why the Plaque at Birkenau, as you people enjoy reminding us, said "4,000,000" for Forty Plus years. Oh, and your "something had to be done" guess entails collusion between the West and the Soviets. Can you prove that? It also assumes collusion between the Communists and the Jews….right at a time when Soviet policy was not to "divide the dead" and treat the victims of Nazism as Soviet citizens, not Jews. And, right at a time when Stalin himself was persecuting Jews. Can you prove that, too?

Nathan said...

From:
http://www.majalla.com/eng/2011/10/article55226854
- Of course, with time more information comes to light and numbers change, along with the stories they tell.-
-The key issue, as every statistician knows, is reliability: the higher the reliability, the less refutable are the numbers, at which point it becomes the proponent’s task to weld that irrefutability to the story they are peddling-

Lots of numbers in that article. They say Al Jazeera said 2 Million people at Tahrir. By your reckoning, the Tahrir protests never happened, and that the Egyptian people loved Hosni Mubarak. I guess the anti Mubarak conspiracy was so paranoid that all of the numbers peddled by news outlets in league with the anti Mubarak conspiracy wouldn't add up, thus the "reduction" by Majalla and Wired.

But seriously, if you can't grasp the difference between guesses made from limited information during or right after the War and estimates made while more information becomes more available, then you're not qualified to talk about it. Hell, talking about them in the same breath makes you outright intellectually dishonest.

- Gassings at AB and the 4,000,000 figure had already be proven as "facts of common knowledge" before Hoess was even captured, at the Belsen and Tesch trials, as well as appearing in the IMT Indictment (Count III, Section VIII, Part A) and USSR-008 (signed by the Extraordinary State Commission's Nikolay Nilovich Burdenko and Mytropolitos Nikolai Ivanovitch Lomakin, who also brought us the *truth* about the Germans perpetrating the Katyn Massacre [USSR-54]. Heavy sarcasm implied).-

If you can't understand the difference between an indictment, the findings of fact, and the judgement, you're not qualified to talk about it.

- I know of 5—you may know of more—former AB survivors who "independently" confirmed, between 8 months to over a year before Hoess was captured, that 4,000,000 were killed at AB (Tauber, Dragon, Bimko, Bendel and Heinrich Neumann) in an affidavit, under oath as a trial witness, or both. -

- - If you can't understand the difference between what a witness saw and what a witness assumed or guessed, and that there are rules of evidence - e.g. the US rules of evidence - that do tell the difference between them, then you're not qualified to talk about it.

- But as you know only too well, the reduce figures in his "memoirs", which he also maintained during his trial, just happened to corroborate the reduce figure being propagated by the Central Jewish Historical Committee in 1947.-

They were a slap in the face to his Polish captors, and to that Plaque that - as you people so desperately try to remind everyone - stood up at Birkenau for 40+ years, despite your pathetic conspiraloon attempt to prove otherwise. You're grasping at straws.

The Black Rabbit of Inlé said...

>>>>> "Basic conspiraloonacy."

"we have maintained that there was a criminal conspiracy for the extermination of Jewry ..."
- Prosecutor Gideon Hausner, Eichmann Trial, 2 May 1961

>>>>> "Instead of looking at the evidence and arriving at a conclusion, you start with an a priori notion and twist the facts to fit the preconcieved notion."

Precisely the same accusation could be levelled at yourselves.

>>>>> "Evolution is a lie; The Devil planted the fossils there to test our faith :)"

You have—for some reason—thought it necessary to bring Evolution into a discussion about Auschwitz! If you believe Evolution-deniers and "Holocaust deniers" are analogous, it's follows that you must believe the evidence for Evolution and the evidence for homicidal gas chambers at Auschwitz are analogous.

"The Defendants accept that the physical evidence remaining at the site of Auschwitz provides little evidence to support the claim that gas chambers were operated there for genocidal purposes."

- Justice Gray, Judgment [differs from an Indictment :) ] 7:118
http://www.hdot.org/en/trial/judgement/07.29

"I recognise the force of many of Irving's comments upon some of those categories. He is right to point out that the contemporaneous documents, such as drawings, plans, correspondence with contractors and the like, yield little clear evidence of the existence of gas chambers designed to kill humans."

- Justice Gray, Judgment 13:73
http://www.hdot.org/en/trial/judgement/13.34

The tangible evidence that our planet is billions of years old, and that all life upon it is descended from a single ancestor, is abundant. We do not have to rely upon cherry-picked eyewitness testimony, confessions from beaten Germans, and cartoons drawn by David Olere.

>>>>> "Oh, and in his memoirs, Hoess's numbers added to 1.1 million, not 1.5."

1,130,000 to be exact Nathan, plus Hoess stated in addition to that figure: "I can no longer remember the figures for the smaller actions, but they were insignificant in comparison with the numbers given above." (p.217, org. 1959 English edition)

>>>>> "Can you prove that the CJHC's expert report mentioned a 1.5 mil figure because, as you claim, they were "paranoid" that the 4 M number couldn't stand up to scrutiny? Moreover, can you prove that Hoess was "pressured" into changing the numbers because of the CJHC's number? All you have are assumptions. Assuming makes an ASS out of U and ME."

What would you take as proof? A facsimile of the order from the WJ Congress in NY to the CJHC, or the minutes of a CJHC meeting in which the problem is unambiguously stated? Neither of these things are available—unsurprisingly. But there is a "convergence of evidence" that the CJHC reduction, which coincided with Hoess' reduction, were not simply coincidental. Why did Hoess claim in his "memoirs" that he taught himself English in Brandenburg prison, when he had no knowledge of the English language at all? (Baxter, p.180)

The Black Rabbit of Inlé said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Black Rabbit of Inlé said...

>>>> "- - The "Poles" as you refer to the Soviet puppet regime in the former Second Polish Republic, were evidently having reduced Auschwitz death tolls thrown "in their face" from all angles.

-snip conspiratorial idiocy -"

So Poland didn't become a Soviet puppet state after the war? Is that what you're claiming Nathan?

>>>> "Doesn't explain why the Plaque at Birkenau, as you people enjoy reminding us, said "4,000,000" for Forty Plus years. Oh, and your "something had to be done" guess entails collusion between the West and the Soviets. Can you prove that?"

The Fifth Annual Conference of the Jewish Council for Russian War Relief, was held at the Astor Hotel, NYC, on May 12, 1946. Two of the speakers at the conference were Rabbi Stephen S. Wise (president of the WJ Congress) and Ilya Enhrenburg (of the Soviet; Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee). Yes, Jewish groups in the West and Jewish groups in Soviet occupied lands, colluded with each other. Shocking!

As for why the 4m plaques (plural) at AB lasted so long, or were even there in the first place. Jewish Holocaust scholars Martin Gilbert and Deborah Lipstadt were both claiming, well into the 1980s, that 4,000,000 were killed at Auschwitz. (Auschwitz & the Allies, p.337, Beyond Belief, p.262), you may use your argument that Gilbert and Lipstadt:
"can't grasp the difference between guesses made from limited information during or right after the War and estimates made while more information becomes more available".
Whereas the real reason is that the only 1.5m or lower death toll estimates for Auschwitz, which were made in the late 1940s, are those of the CJHC and Hoess' "memoirs" and Hoess' trial testimony. If scholars as "qualified to talk about it" as Gilbert and Lipstadt, either didn't know of, or chose to dismiss these sources, then it's hardly surprising that Auschwitz museum also went with the 4m figure which was the figure usually cited until 1989 (Hilberg and Reitlinger aside, but their lower figures were evidently not respected by the Gilberts and Lipstadts).

>>>> "And, right at a time when Stalin himself was persecuting Jews."

We're discussing early 1947 here. Stalin officially recognised the State of Israel on 17 May 1948. It took an entire 3 days—following the SoI's Proclamation of Independence—for Stalin to recognise the new country. Such terrible persecution of the Jews there from Stalin.

>>>>> - Of course, with time more information comes to light and numbers change, along with the stories they tell.-

What's remarkable about the Holocaust death toll number, is the fact it hasn't changed at all. Here's just a few on the pronouncements by proponents of the Zionism movement, who claimed 6,000,000 Jews had been killed before Wilhelm Hoettl's affidavit (2738-PS) was introduced as evidence by U.S. prosecutor William F. Walsh at the IMT on the morning of Friday, December 14, 1945:

The Black Book - November 1944
Jacob Lestchinsky - January 7, 1945
Joseph Thon - March 1945
Rabbi Stephen S. Wise - May 1945 - Aug 20, 1945
Paul Ghali, professor of International Law - May 13, 1945
Robert W. Schiff - June 8, 1945
Dr Jacob Robinson - June 11, 1945
Dr. Abba Hillel Silver - June 11, 1945
Polish Jewish Committee Report - very early August 1945
World Zionist Organisation Declaration - August 13, 1945
Dr. Howard Le Sourd & Carl Herman Voss - August 31, 1945
Anna Raginsky - September 7, 1945
Horder of Harley Street - September 21, 1945
Eliahu Dobkin - September 1945
Dr. Howard Le Sourd & Carl Herman Voss - September 1945
Dr. Abba Hillel Silver (again) - October 5, 1945
David Arnold Croll - October 9, 1945
Leon Kubowitski World Jewish Congress - October 1945
Reuters - October 1945
Randolph Churchill - November 22, 1945

Nathan said...

>>>>> "Basic conspiraloonacy."

"we have maintained that there was a criminal conspiracy for the extermination of Jewry ..."
- Prosecutor Gideon Hausner, Eichmann Trial, 2 May 1961

A silly equivocation. You're not fooling anyone other than yourself.

-
You have—for some reason—thought it necessary to bring Evolution into a discussion about Auschwitz! If you believe Evolution-deniers and "Holocaust deniers" are analogous, it's follows that you must believe the evidence for Evolution and the evidence for homicidal gas chambers at Auschwitz are analogous.

- snip out of context Verdict Quotes -

The tangible evidence that our planet is billions of years old, and that all life upon it is descended from a single ancestor, is abundant. We do not have to rely upon cherry-picked eyewitness testimony, confessions from beaten Germans, and cartoons drawn by David Olere.
-

If you think that those "sources" you mentioned, are the only sources for the accepted account of Birkenau, then you're a silly little straw manning troll who isn't worth responding to.

And, did you think I wouldn't check Justice Gray's judgement? I'm not surprised: you're taking quotes out of context.


- What would you take as proof? A facsimile of the order from the WJ Congress in NY to the CJHC, or the minutes of a CJHC meeting in which the problem is unambiguously stated? Neither of these things are available—unsurprisingly. -

How convenient.

- But there is a "convergence of evidence" that the CJHC reduction, which coincided with Hoess' reduction, were not simply coincidental. Why did Hoess claim in his "memoirs" that he taught himself English in Brandenburg prison, when he had no knowledge of the English language at all? (Baxter, p.180) -

Non Sequitur.

I'll ask again
Moreover, can you prove that Hoess was "pressured" into changing the numbers because of the CJHC's number?

You haven't answered this question. More silly assumptions. Assuming makes an ASS out of U and ME. Mostly you, though. You are still grasping at straws.

I don't have Baxter's book, unfortunately. What does the footnote say? Why should I accept a secondary source that significantly contradicts the primary source it's drawing from?

Nathan said...

->>>> "- - The "Poles" as you refer to the Soviet puppet regime in the former Second Polish Republic, were evidently having reduced Auschwitz death tolls thrown "in their face" from all angles. 

-snip conspiratorial idiocy -"

So Poland didn't become a Soviet puppet state after the war? Is that what you're claiming Nathan? -

This is the second time you've omitted parts of my Argument. You are being intellectually dishonest. More proof that you're a silly little straw manning troll who isn't worth responding to.

- As for why the 4m plaques (plural) at AB lasted so long, or were even there in the first place. Jewish Holocaust scholars Martin Gilbert and Deborah Lipstadt were both claiming, well into the 1980s, that 4,000,000 were killed at Auschwitz. (Auschwitz & the Allies, p.337,)-

Spare me.

- If scholars as "qualified to talk about it" as Gilbert and Lipstadt, either didn't know of, or chose to dismiss these sources, then it's hardly surprising that Auschwitz museum also went with the 4m figure which was the figure usually cited until 1989 (Hilberg and Reitlinger aside, but their lower figures were evidently not respected by the Gilberts and Lipstadts).-

Non Sequitur.

- What's remarkable about the Holocaust death toll number, is the fact it hasn't changed at all. Here's just a few on the pronouncements by proponents of the Zionism movement, who claimed 6,000,000 Jews had been killed before Wilhelm Hoettl's affidavit (2738-PS) was introduced as evidence by U.S. prosecutor William F. Walsh at the IMT on the morning of Friday, December 14, 1945: -

That's another thing you have to prove: that somehow, Hoettl's affidavit was influenced by those "sources" you mentioned below. You've done a piss poor job of proving your last assertion, so I won't be holding my breath.

If you can't grasp the difference between guesses made from limited information during or right after the War and estimates made while more information becomes more available, or estimates by people in the know then you're not qualified to talk about it.

You are a bore. It's no wonder that Roberto hasn't wasted his time on you.

Nathan said...

>>>> "And, right at a time when Stalin himself was persecuting Jews."

- We're discussing early 1947 here. Stalin officially recognised the State of Israel on 17 May 1948. It took an entire 3 days—following the SoI's Proclamation of Independence—for Stalin to recognise the new country. Such terrible persecution of the Jews there from Stalin.-

I was talking about Jews in the Soviet territories. Not Israel. You conveniently missed this last part, too:
It also assumes collusion between the Communists and the Jews….right at a time when Soviet policy was not to "divide the dead" and treat the victims of Nazism as Soviet citizens, not Jews.

>>>>> "Evolution is a lie; The Devil planted the fossils there to test our faith :)"

A succinct description of your methodology, especially with regards to the CJHC and Hoess.

Nathan said...

- The Black Book - November 1944
Jacob Lestchinsky - January 7, 1945
Joseph Thon - March 1945
Rabbi Stephen S. Wise - May 1945 - Aug 20, 1945
Paul Ghali, professor of International Law - May 13, 1945
Robert W. Schiff - June 8, 1945
Dr Jacob Robinson - June 11, 1945
Dr. Abba Hillel Silver - June 11, 1945
Polish Jewish Committee Report - very early August 1945
World Zionist Organisation Declaration - August 13, 1945
Dr. Howard Le Sourd & Carl Herman Voss - August 31, 1945
Anna Raginsky - September 7, 1945
Horder of Harley Street - September 21, 1945
Eliahu Dobkin - September 1945
Dr. Howard Le Sourd & Carl Herman Voss - September 1945
Dr. Abba Hillel Silver (again) - October 5, 1945 
David Arnold Croll - October 9, 1945
Leon Kubowitski World Jewish Congress - October 1945
Reuters - October 1945
Randolph Churchill - November 22, 1945 -

I'm not familiar with these. But, if I were to hazard a guess, I would say that these people cited the Black Book's estimates and took them at face value.


The Black Rabbit of Inlé said...

JEWISH TELEGRAPHIC AGENCY

MARCH 28, 1947

Hoess Confirms Jewish Historian’s Testimony That 1,500,000 Jews Murdered at Oswiecim

WARSAW, Mar. 27 (JTA) –

Rudolf Hoess, former commandant of the Oswiecim death camp, on trial here for murdering 4,000,000 persons many of whom were Jews, today confirmed testimony by Dr. J.M. Blumenthal, director of the Jewish Historical Commission in Poland, that approximately 1,500,000 Jews were exterminated at Oswiecim.

Hoess, who has been described as "the greatest mass murderer in history," revealed that shipments of Jews to the camp's gas chambers and crematoriums included 110,000 Jews from France, 95,000 from Holland, 65,000 from Greece, 45,000 from Hungary and 20,000 from Belgium. He added that transports had also arrived from Yugoslavia, Italy, Russia, Rumania, Bulgaria and Spain, and that Finland was the only Nazi-controlled country which did not ship Jews to their death at the camp.

Dr. Blumenthal testified that Jewish historians had discovered that 4,200,000 of the 6,200,000 Jews murdered in Europe had been killed in Poland. Three million of these were Polish Jews. In addition to the Jews killed at Oswiscim, he said, 775,000 perished at the Treblinka camp, 330,000 at Chelmo, 400,000 at Majdanek and another 400,000 at Sobibor and Belzac.

http://archive.jta.org/article/1947/03/28/3009328/hoess-confirms-jewish-historians-testimony-that-1500000-jews-murdered-at-oswiecim

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hI1nPd7hezM

The Black Rabbit of Inlé said...

>>>>> "I'm not familiar with these. But, if I were to hazard a guess, I would say that these people cited the Black Book's estimates and took them at face value."

Oh dear. I did say the BB wasn't published in English until March 1946. So you've no excuse.

Nathan said...

Hoess Confirms Jewish Historian’s Testimony That 1,500,000 Jews Murdered at Oswiecim

You're grasping at straws. The context of the article is more like: X is confirming what we've suspected for a long time. The article makes no mention of Dr. Blumenthal "pressuring" or "torturing " Hoess.

I'll ask again
Moreover, can you prove that Hoess was "pressured" into changing the numbers because of the CJHC's number?

You still haven't answered.


But then, what else should anyone expect from someone who peddled false "Talmud" quotes?

- Oh dear. I did say the BB wasn't published in English until March 1946. So you've no excuse. -

I checked the wikipedia: It was published in Yiddish, first. Maybe those people you mentioned could speak Yiddish?

Oh, and here's what else Wikipedia had to say about it:
The Book was partially printed in the Soviet Union by the Yiddish publisher Der Emes, however the entire edition, the typefaces, as well as the manuscript, were destroyed. First the censors ordered changes in the text to conceal the specifically anti-Jewish character of the atrocities and to downplay the role of Ukrainians who worked as Nazi police officers. Then in 1948 the Soviet edition of the book was scrapped completely. The collection of original documents that Ehrenburg handed down to the Vilnius Jewish Museum after the war was secretly returned to him upon the Museum's termination in 1948. The JAC was also disbanded, its members purged at the outset of the state campaign against the "rootless cosmopolitans", a Soviet euphemism for Jews. (See also the Doctors' plot). Typically, the official Soviet policy regarding the Holocaust was to present it as atrocities committed against Soviet citizens, without acknowledging the genocide of the Jews.


Again:
Doesn't explain why the Plaque at Birkenau, as you people enjoy reminding us, said "4,000,000" for Forty Plus years. Oh, and your "something had to be done" guess entails collusion between the West and the Soviets. Can you prove that? It also assumes collusion between the Communists and the Jews….right at a time when Soviet policy was not to "divide the dead" and treat the victims of Nazism as Soviet citizens, not Jews. And, right at a time when Stalin himself was persecuting Jews. Can you prove that, too?

You still haven't.

Nathan said...

You're not being consistent. You argued that the Poles (and their Soviet Masters) were worried that no one would buy the 4m number. So, they somehow "allowed" the CJHC to "pressure" Hoess into lowering the number. Then, for 40 years, they kept the 4M number on the Plaque. Your "explanation" was that the Auschwitz museum - and by extension, the Poles and their Soviet handlers - didn't care and chose to follow some historians from the west, instead of the number that they "force-fed" Hoess….because they were worried that no one would buy the 4m number.

That's two things you've failed to be consistent on. But then, what else should anyone expect from a silly conspiracy theorist?

Jacob said...

Nathan, your opponent's invoking of the Black Book has another flaw, as seen here: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/documents/ftp.cgi?documents//black-book/4-million-jews
This off course contradicts his 4 million claim

Andrew E. Mathis said...

Hey Bunny:

Send me an e-mail to:

aemathisphd at gmail

I've got something to share with you. No funny business, scout's honor.