Friday, January 23, 2009

Rudolf and the Convergence of Evidence

I am grateful to Dave Woolfe for drawing my attention to this article, which suggests that Rudolf knows rather more than his denier disciples about the limited ability of physical science to prove or disprove historical cases. Dave's excellent commentary can be found here.

6 comments:

Diogenes said...

wow some 'scholarship' this blog has. Rudolf has refuted that silly article and website, here:

http://www.vho.org/GB/c/GR/CharacterAssassins.html

http://www.vho.org/GB/c/GR/Green.html

http://www.vho.org/GB/c/GR/Evasions.html

dantonj said...

Actually, I don't see anything in those links that refute the article Dr. Harrison wrote. Rudolf has justified or rationalized just about crime attributed to Nazism, and then proclaims to stand for a reconciliation between Germans and Jews, and that he does not seek to whitewash Hitler or the Third Reich. Robert Faurisson said in an interview that the Nazis pursued "no criminal policy against Jews".

Fred Toeben argues that the Jews deserved the Holocaust that never happened because a few prominent Jews in England and the US allegedly declared war on Germany in the early 30s, and Hitler, the poor, innocent, peace-loving man that he was, had no choice but to lock up these nefarious schemers. But wait, the Jews in Germany never issued such statements; it was Jews in foreign countries. How's that for sensible? Those damn Jewish world conspiracies.

Arthur Butz dismisses everything about the Holocaust, maintaining it was an elaborate hoax, and that all the incriminating evidence was forged, millions of pages of documentation,and yet these same forgers could not create a simple written order with Hitler's signature authorizing the murder of Jews, which is the key piece of evidence Butz says he would need to think the Holocaust was a real event. Ernst Zundel openly admires Hitler and insists Germans enjoyed freedom of speech and press in Nazi Germany.

He also says 300,000 or fewer Jews died during WWII, apparently ignoring ghettos, shooting operations, those who died in transit, or were killed in other acts of violence across Europe. Anyone who says fewer than 1 million Jews died in WWII is certainly a liar, and even 1 million is far too low. I personally accept Raul Hilberg's figure of 5.1 million, but it could be 4 million or 3.5 million, I don't really care, those are safe estimates.

This is the only blog that effectively dismantles "revisionist" nonsense, and for that it deserves credit. After reading its critique of Sanning's book, and then reading Sanning's book, I found the criticism to be 100% accurate, he does misrepresent Jewish population statistics and promote that ludicrous theory of Soviet evacuations of Jews, as if Stalin was truly concerned with Jewish lives. The Nazis themselves stated in 1942 that 11 million Jews were still left in Europe, roughly half or more of that figure in territories they controlled. I don't think they were wrong.

Diogenes said...

"Actually, I don't see anything in those links that refute the article Dr. Harrison wrote"

---that's pretty pathetic. Rudolf mentions how Dr. Harrison tacitly agrees about the main problem of not finding cyanide on the walls of the "gas chamber"

"Rudolf has justified or rationalized just about crime attributed to Nazism"

---you're not sticking to the science here, you're just using the same washed up tactic of smearing revisionists as "Nazi apologists". And no where has Rudolf justified any Nazi crimes, SHOW PROOF For that

"Robert Faurisson said in an interview that the Nazis pursued "no criminal policy against Jews"."

where did he say this? And even if he DID SAY IT, that's not an argument against the science or against revisionist evidence for the holocaust

"Fred Toeben argues that the Jews deserved the Holocaust that never happened because a few prominent Jews in England and the US allegedly declared war on Germany in the early 30s, and Hitler, the poor, innocent, peace-loving man that he was, had no choice but to lock up these nefarious schemers. But wait, the Jews in Germany never issued such statements; it was Jews in foreign countries. How's that for sensible? Those damn Jewish world conspiracies."

LOL WTF? This has NOTHING TO DO WITH Rudolf's rebuttal to that ridiculous article on the Holocaust History Website. Nothing at all, you just INSERTED this from NOWHERE.

"Arthur Butz dismisses everything about the Holocaust, maintaining it was an elaborate hoax, and that all the incriminating evidence was forged"

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RUDOLF'S REBUTTAL TO THE ARTICLE I MENTIONED!

WHAT incriminating evidence? Eyewitness testimony? The same UNRELIABLE testimony that said that Dauchau, Buchenwald, and the camps on German soil also had "gas chambers", when now we know that it's not true? Or the eyewitnesses about the "electric floors" and the "fire pits" and the soap bars and the lamp shades?

"millions of pages of documentation"

MILLIONS? WHAT pages?

Is that why Raul Hillberg admitted there was no document or even record of a planned government extermination? And that it was done through "mind reading"?

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n1p15_Faurisson.html

"But what began in 1941 was a process of destruction not planned in advance, not organized centrally by any agency. There was no blueprint and there was no budget for destructive measures. They [these measures] were taken step by step, one step at a time. Thus came about not so much a plan being carried out, but an incredible meeting of minds, a consensus -- mind reading by a far-flung bureaucracy."


"Ernst Zundel openly admires Hitler and insists Germans enjoyed freedom of speech and press in Nazi Germany."

AGAIN NOTHING TO DO WITH RUDOLF'S REBUTTAL

not only that, but Jews and Israeli Rabbis constantly and regularly call for the genocide of Palestinians and Arabs, to which the Israeli Army responds diligently, and no one hears about it, Jews and Rabbis can advocate genocide against Arabs they call "Amalek" with no suppression of free speech while Zundel who praises Hitler goes to jail


"apparently ignoring ghettos"

Where's the evidence that millions died in the ghettos?

"those who died in transit"

and this amounts to what, 3 MILLION people? Is that what you'll say, some crazy, imaginary number concocted out of sheer fantasy?


"Anyone who says fewer than 1 million Jews died in WWII is certainly a liar, and even 1 million is far too low"

Why? Because YOU SAID SO? Also, Eisenhower's Death Camps and the German refugees from Eastern Europe died to a little over 1 million people, check out Basque's work, to which the Jewpedia censors and defames him about


"I personally accept Raul Hilberg's figure of 5.1 million, but it could be 4 million or 3.5 million, I don't really care, those are safe estimates."

LOL, sheer arrogance! Hillberg claimed that because there was no real document for it, it was done by "mind reading" through "far flung bureaucracies"

AGAIN THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RUDOLF'S REBUTTAL


"This is the only blog that effectively dismantles "revisionist" nonsense"

LOL! By doing what? THROWING A BUNCH OF CLAIMS TO SOMETHING THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT?

I have shown how Rudolf has rebutted effectively the rubbish article on the Holocaust History website, and you immediately deflect attention away from it and give me this rant that has nothing to do with that specific topic, nothing but "shotgunning" and you call it "effective"


"Soviet evacuations of Jews, as if Stalin was truly concerned with Jewish lives"

the Bolshevik movement was Jewish owned and run from the beginning. Trotsky, Lenin, Marx, Moses Hess, Zinoviev, Apfelbaum, Yigoda, were all Jews. All the Commissars that massacred tens of millions of Russian and Ukrainian Christian peasants were Jews, way beyond the scope of "the holocaust"

Stalin helped CREATE the State of Israel by funding and arming the Kibbutzes and the Communist Zionist Jews


"The Nazis themselves stated in 1942 that 11 million Jews were still left in Europe, roughly half or more of that figure in territories they controlled. I don't think they were wrong."

right...

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v09/v09p439_Weber.html

[Wiesenthal "threw out" the figure of "11 million who were murdered in the Holocaust -- six million Jews and five million non-Jews," said the director. When asked why he gave these figures, Wiesenthal replied: "The gentiles will not pay attention if we do not mention their victims, too." Wiesenthal "chose 'five million (gentiles)' because he wanted a 'diplomatic' number, one that told of a large number of gentile victims but in no way was larger than that of Jews... "]


YOU HAVE IGNORED RUDOLF'S REBUTTAL TO THAT ARTICLE ON HOLOCAUST HISTORY and you've merely shotgunned me with random claims that have NOTHING TO DO WITH Rudolf's rebuttal

Roberto Muehlenkamp said...

Why is it that "Revisionists" tend to be so shrill and hysterical? :-)

Robert86 said...

"Why is it that "Revisionists" tend to be so shrill and hysterical? :-)"

Yes but to be fair, no one comment so far has really discussed the 'issue' at hand. The one brought up by Diogenes concerning Rudolf's supposed reply to the Holocaust Controversies blog. I hope to see something resembling one sometime soon.

Diogenes said...

Gee thanks Robert86 for your "modesty" (sarcastic).. finally some honesty, unlike some obnoxious terms like "shrill" and "hysterical"

Rudolf and Leuchter and the rest were right about it, here's a small bit of the first part of 9. Conclusions in the Rudolf Report:


In particular, the testimonies relating to the duration of executions in the 'gas chambers' (morgue 1) of crematoria II and III, as well as the ventilation times after the executions go completely awry. This is because of the over-estimation of the evaporation rate of hydrogen cyanide from the carrier of Zyklon B, as well as the incorrect concept of the effectiveness of the ventilation of the rooms. If the eyewitness testimonies relating to the quantities of Zyklon B used, and at least approximately relating to the rapidity of the execution procedure are to be accepted, then they are incompatible with testimonies, sometimes of the same witnesses, that the victims' corpses were removed from the 'gas chambers' immediately after the executions and without gas masks and protective garments. This is particularly true for those alleged 'gas chambers' without ventilation installations (crematoria IV and V and farmhouses I and II), since working in poorly ventilated 'gas chambers' with high concentrations of poison gas is impossible without gas masks. The extreme danger to the sweating workers of the Sonderkommando, who are supposed to have worked without protective garments, makes the witnesses untrustworthy. The eyewitness accounts are therefore completely contradictory, illogical, contrary to the laws of nature, and therefore incredible. The witnesses engage in particular contortions when it comes to the cremations (amount and kind of fuel used, speed of cremation, development of flames and smoke), which furthermore fail to accord with the analyses of aerial photography.