Dear Nick,
We (that is me) are glad to hear that you have expressed your commitment for free speech and against "arresting people for their beliefs”, and trust that this is not limited to your own beliefs but meant universally, also applying to, say for example, denial of crimes committed against Germans.
We entirely support the concern that spreading historical claims should not be punished in an open society – and would like to add – also when these are utterly absurd, offensive to members of the society and mainly a vehicle of political extremism (such as Holocaust denial).
- The Auschwitz death books are incomplete, and no record exists for 1944 and 1945. Your statement that the Soviets “seized all of its ‘death books’ with the records of all persons who had died there” is misleading/incorrect.
- It can be shown by documentary evidence (corroborated by numerous testimonial evidence) that causes of death in the certificates have been falsified by the SS, namely that unnatural deaths have been camouflaged as natural ones. But then any cause of natural death given in these records (at least since 1942) is a priori doubtful and requires external corroboration to be taken for granted.
Hence, your statement that the death record “does not record them [the Jews] as having been murdered” is not questioning, let aside rebutting that any Jews have been murdered in Auschwitz.
- The unrealistic decline of Jewish deaths in 1943 compared to the non-Jewish indicates that most of the former were not entered into the records anymore after February 1943 and that the death records for this year have to be considered unreliable with respect to the number of deaths among registered Jewish prisoners, and you are well aware of this argument.
- Jewish people killed directly after their arrival without prior registration in the camp books were not entered into the death records. This can be shown again by documentary evidence.
On 21 and 24 January 1943, 3.383 Jews considered unfit for work were “specially lodged” in Auschwitz. The term was a variant of “special treatment” (see telex from Heinrich Schwarz to SS-WVHA of 5 March 1943), which in turn was an euphemism at the concentration camp administrations for unnatural deaths without a judicial decision.
However, the death books contain only 2.841 Jewish deaths for the entire months of January 1943. Therefore, it is clear that Jews selected as unfit for work at the ramp and killed after their arrival without registration in the camp books were not registered in the death books either, even when this was still practised for the deaths among registered Jews.
In summary, the death books do not allow any conclusion on the total number of Jews ceased in the Auschwitz concentration camp complex nor that Jews were not murdered there.
Kollerstrom is a liar. A bad one, at that.
ReplyDeleteFrom his silly little screed:
Then in May 1945 Russia announced its figure of four and a half million deaths at the Auschwitz camp during the war, which became the basis of the ‘six million Jews’ killed by the Nazis.
What did Roberto call it? A herring with an old white beard. It's been something like 20 years, and "Revisionists" still cling to this old lie. One only needs to look at the presentation by Smirnov at the IMT:
"However, employing rectified coefficients for the part-time use of the crematorium ovens and for the periods when they stood empty, the technical expert commission has ascertained that during the period of time that the Auschwitz Camp existed the German butchers exterminated in this camp not less than 4 million citizens of the U.S.S.R., Poland, France, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Holland, Belgium, and other countries."
The IMT didn't even buy this. The IMT's judgement instead quotes Hoess's estimate of Three million, rather than the above. So, it's absolutely disingenuous to say that the 4 Million formed the basis for the 6 Million Death toll.
Epic fail.
Thanks for this, Hans. I could use the laughs.
Also, Hans, you validly point out that in the available death books, the Jewish death toll declines from 1943 onwards. Nick Terry also mentioned this elsewhere. Would you happen to know if the executions carried out directly as a result of the 1944 Sonderkommando revolt appears in other documents, in a manner similar to the other examples you mentioned? There's no doubt that such a significant event would've left other documentary traces - perhaps in the guard books or such - even if - because Jewish deaths were no longer being recorded as of 1943 - they don't appear in the death books, and would provide strong evidence for the records being falsified, and Jewish deaths no longer being recorded in them.
ReplyDeleteI see assertions and abuse (as usual) here to challenge Nick Kollerstrom but little or nothing in the way of actual evidence.
ReplyDeleteThe 'cover-up' theory (or is this simple unfounded propaganda) assumes the existence of gas chambers to dispatch all the supposedly missing Jews. But David Cole, Germar Rudolf, Carlo Mottogno and many others cited by Nick Kollerstrom have produced powerful scientific evidence that disproves the existence of these "human gas chambers".
If you want to establish that Jews were massacred in mass-gassings you must produce some real evidence that this occurred. You must also explain how the scientific facts negate all you are claiming to be true.
Enough abuse already. Or is that all you have really got?
Nathan, good point. I would like to encourage Kollerstrom to back up his claim that the Soviet Auschwitz death toll became the basis of the six Million Holocaust figure.
ReplyDeleteI am not aware of German contemporary documents on the killing of the prisoners during and in the aftermath of the October 44 Sonderkommando revolt (the death of 3 SS men is reported in the Standortbefehl of 12 October 1944, books.google.de/books?id=oFIJwgev99EC&pg=PA499). The drop of the Sonderkommando strength in the Birkenau labour force reports is of course reflecting the liquidations, but no direct evidence for them.
But since there are no death books known for 1944 anyway, I cannot see how such a document - if it were existing - would provide evidence on the practice since March 1943 not to release death certificates for most of deaths of registered Jewish people.
- I see assertions and abuse (as usual) here to challenge Nick Kollerstrom but little or nothing in the way of actual evidence.-
ReplyDelete"T.S. Road" clearly can't read.
- David Cole-
All DC was really able to "expose", maybe, was the water reservoir at Auschwitz 1, and maybe, the fact that Krema 1 was a reconstruction. So what?
- Germar Rudolf -
The bottom line is that traces of Cyanide were found at all of the sites in question. The exposure to Cyanide is a fact. The rest is just goalpost moving.
- Carlo Mottogno -
Is this a joke?
- If you want to establish that Jews were massacred in mass-gassings you must produce some real evidence that this occurred. -
What's "Real evidence" as opposed to "Not real evidence"? And, who other than "T.S. Road" needs "Real evidence"? Why should anyone give a damn about what "T.S. Road" needs?
Can T.S. Road cite any actual "abuse"? Any reasonable person can see that Hans was rather polite, especially considering that this moron Kollestrom cited the tired old herring about the 4 Million at Auschwitz, and therefore showed thathe doesn't desrve any such politeness.
Honestly, these self styled "Free Speech warriors" are so full of themselves that everything seems like "Abuse". What a bunch of losers.
You can congratulate yourself on being a Jewish "winner" Nathan but, hopefully, not for too much longer and that's what terrifies you, doesn't it?
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, to deal with you in your own currency I should say that what people like me can't stand about the likes of you (and you come as a stereotype) is that you are quite obviously a determined dissembler, a liar and a supremacist creep.
- But since there are no death books known for 1944 anyway, I cannot see how such a document - if it were existing - would provide evidence on the practice since March 1943 not to release death certificates for most of deaths of registered Jewish people.
ReplyDelete-
The way I see it is that "Revisionists", when confronted with the total absence of any records in 1944, may be tempted to argue that there are no records because Jews were not being killed, Period. Of course, documentation indicating that a large number of Jews were killed - e.g. the drop in the strength reports you mentioned - would refute this idea. Naturally, the record of a large number of Jewish deaths in one set of records and the total absence of any such deaths in the "official" death books would indicate that yes, Jewish deaths are no longer being recorded in the "official" records.
Also, Hans, I was wondering what you think of the following:
ReplyDeletehttp://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=745229#p745229
In this old AHF thread, David Thompson suggests that Konrad Morgen's IMT testimony was framed the way it was because Dr. Morgen was "Trying to distance the death camp adminstration from the SS as an institution". E.G., pointing out that the "Monowitz Extermination Camp" was run by Ukranians, Balts, etc. rather than by German SS. I understand that it's very likely that Morgen simply got the name of the two sites mixed up in his testimony, since such mistakes happen all the time, even in my experiences. You've pointed this out elsewhere, but I was wondering if you think that the scenario pointed out by David could also be true.
So, No one to vote for, can you enlighten us all and give your version of what the 'morgues' function were in the crematoriums?
ReplyDeleteAre you going for a)Air Raid Shelter b)Delousing chamber c)Morgue d) An en-suite shelter/morgue/delousing chamber combo e) games room f) indoor swimming pool g)shithouse or h) just an empty room !!!!
A £10 gift voucher for the IHR bookshop is yours, Mr No-one, for the most original pile of bullshit you can offer :)
Hi Nathan,
ReplyDeleteI would also not interpret too much into Morgen's Monowitz slip, it is certainly possible and the most simplest explanation that he was just mixing up names. I don't see evidence for anything more sinister or complex than this.
But I think David Thompson only wanted to say that the reference to Balts, Ukrainians etc. was "an attempt to distance the death camp administration from the SS" but not the slip with Monowitz. I guess he would be with us that Monowitz was just some confusion for the moment.
Arthur Crump:
ReplyDelete"A £10 gift voucher for the IHR bookshop is yours, Mr No-one, for the most original pile of bullshit you can offer :)"
No submission yet? Extend the voucher also for videos. Actually, there are only a handful of books in their shop and these have almost collector's value already.
Putin Letter
ReplyDeletePlease forgive my delay in replying.
You start by averring that Revisionism (which you call Holocaust denial) is ‘a vehicle of political extremism.’ Au contraire, as my new book makes crystal-clear www.BreakingTheSpell.co.uk Revisionism is a quest for historical exactitude, and is not politically motivated. It may have political consequences but that is a secondary affair. It is the quest for historical truth which is the sacred thing: on which our future well-being may depend.
1. Yes the Death-books, seized by the Soviets when they liberated Auschwitz and finally published in the 1990s, are incomplete. The Soviets did presumably seize all of these books that they could find. If you want a more careful phrasing of this matter, see my book Breaking the spell The Holocaust Myth and Reality, p.81-84 Let’s agree that some proportion of inmates were not registered, and possibly they died without having death-records. I used the figure of 10% as given by the British intelligence decrypts although I appreciate you might wish to have a far higher figure.(See October 1942 decrypt, http://www.whatreallyhappened.info/decrypts/hw16_65_zip_os3_29.10.42.html :‘about 2,000 men in the total are always unaccounted for’)
2. You say that cause-of-death reports have been falsified. I’m merely saying that both the Arolsen Archives and the Death Books of Au show a lot of trouble to report the causes of death, at great length, and not one single one anywhere has death by gassing or by cyanide – just as nobody in any German labour-camp reported seeing a bright shocking pink body, which is what results from death by cyanide. I have simply stated a fact, that these death records do not report the murder of any ethnic group eg Jews: which is correct. Inmates were shot at Auschwitz, if they tried to escape. The decrypts make that clear.
3. concerning the (mysterious) decline in reported Jewish deaths in 1943 (see here http://www.whatreallyhappened.info/decrypts/Death_Certs_IMH_Auschwitz_Charts.html) you aver that this ‘indicates’ that most Jewish deaths were not being recorded. That is mere conjecture on your part, which I try to avoid. You CANNOT SHOW any authentic Nazi document suggesting that such selective non-reporting was taking place.
4. No it cannot be shown! I challenge you to do this. Its just an unverifiable phantasm, that hordes of Jews were gassed-on-arrival without being registered.
Concerning your next paragraph, many Jews unfit for work were lodged at Birkenau camp rather that Auschwitz. Your hunch that ‘specially lodged’ was a code for extermination is again a mere pipedream: that is not the way to do history. The ‘Special treatment’ here alluded to the preocedure, instigated in the summer of 1942 whereby all new arrivals were shaved, had their clothing removed and deloused, and showered, and it worked: slowly the dreadful mortality from the typhus epidemics were brought under control.
Your last paragraph assumes what you are trying to prove, that because ‘only’ 2841 Jewish deaths were reported, that ‘therefore’ jews selected as unfit for work were being exterminated. I believe You cannot produce any Nazi document to support this.
@nicholas
ReplyDeleteThanks for your comment. I've placed my reply to your here:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.de/2015/05/reply-to-nicholas-kollerstrom-on.html
While reading "Breaking the Spell" by Dr. Kellerstrom I got wondering about cremation, and how the cremated remains of a million or more people could vanish without a trace. So I looked into cremation (see www.cremationresourse.org/cremation/how-is-a-body-cremated.html) to see if it really results in ashes, which could have been easily disposed of with few traces. Turns out that cremation basically results in bone fragments (and not "ashes"). To turn bone fragments into "a finer sand-like consistency" requires a cremulator to crush or grind the bone fragments. Yet there is no evidence of a cremulator at any of the alleged death camps. So that would suggest that there should be bone fragments laying around to support the theory of cremation of somewhere between 500K and a million people at certain "death camps" (e.g, Treblinka and Auschwitz). Alas, there are no records showing the finding of great quantities of bone fragments at any of the alleged death camps. Supposedly at Auschwitz the "ashes" were dumped into the Vistula River. If the "ashes" were really bone fragments, then there should be evidence of the bone fragments of a million (or more) people in the Vistula River at the alleged dump location. After all, even after 70 years there should be some residuary evidence at the bottom of the Vistula to support the contention that the bone fragments of over 1 million people were dumped there. But there is none.
ReplyDeleteFurther, if the Nazis allegedly harvested gold from the teeth of their victims, this would require either: (i) a processing plant to extract gold from the cremated remains of their victims; or (ii) that the teeth containing these precious metals were extracted from the victims after gassing, but prior to cremation. But there is no evidence to support either alternative.
Regarding the missing volumes from the Auschwitz records (secured by the Russians in January 1945, and released to the public in 1989), why would the Russians (or indeed, anyone other than the Germans, who had no control over the released documents) suppress volumes that would tend to support the "extermination" theory? After all, providing volumes that supported the "extermination" theory would tend to play into the hands of the Holocaust advocates (such as the USSR, US, UK, and their Jewish fifth columns) in order to advance their separate and collective agendas. For example, if the Jewish fifth columns wanted to advance the theory of "the extermination of 6 million Jews", then they would have definitely wanted these missing volumes (which allegedly supported this contention) to be made available to the public. My guess is that the Russians either just lost these volumes (after all, the Soviet Army was not exactly the paragon of bureaucratic efficiently), or the missing volumes were taken as war souvenirs. Another theory (mine) is that Jewish fifth-column agents destroyed these volumes because the volumes did not support their story. Alternatively, if the missing volumes were destroyed by the Germans to hide their alleged crimes, why would they just destroy some of the volumes, but not all of the volumes? The Germans were clever, but I find it hard to believe that in late 1944 they selectively destroyed records in anticipation of future war crime trials. In all likelihood the missing volumes were simply lost.
What I have presented above is only the tip of the iceberg. There are so many more inconsistencies between the currently accepted version of the "Holocaust" and the real facts that is difficult to accept the current dogma. Do your own independent research, and be wary of "sources" that perhaps have a separate agenda. The so-called "Holocaust deniers" don't have any agenda other than seeking and exposing the truth.
"Jewish people killed directly after their arrival without prior registration in the camp books were not entered into the death records. This can be shown again by documentary evidence.
ReplyDeleteOn 21 and 24 January 1943, 3.383 Jews considered unfit for work were “specially lodged” in Auschwitz. The term was a variant of “special treatment” (see telex from Heinrich Schwarz to SS-WVHA of 5 March 1943), which in turn was an euphemism at the concentration camp administrations for unnatural deaths without judicial decision"
This shows that you have no documentary evidence for jewish people being directly killed after their arrival.
"Lodging" is not synonymous with "killing", lodging means giving shelter to someone.
The claim that this is a euphemism for killing is an unsubstantiated claim.
This manner of interpreting texts is called Eisegesis, meaning reading something into a text, which it does not contain.Eiseges is the process of interpreting a text text in such a way that the process introduces one's own agendas or biases into the text.The agenda in this case is the belief in the holocaust. Without the immediate killing of unregistered Jews, the orthodox Auschwitz narrative cannot be supported, i.e. the story must be expunged from the history books. Therefore, the term "lodging" must mean "killing".
In contrast, exegesis is the critical analysis and interpretation of a text. It means retrieving the information contained in a text. If you want to write history on the basis of documents, then you must employ exegesis not eisegesis. Eisegesis is unscientific.
bhigr,
ReplyDeleteyou did not check out the links I provided, which demonstrate that special lodging = special treatment = killing, did you?
Hans, I checked your links. The first link does not lead to any document. I assume this document exists and discloses that on 21 and 24 January 1943, 3.383 Jews considered unfit for work were “specially lodged” in Auschwitz.
ReplyDeleteThe second link works and relates to the letter of 5. March 1943. This letter contains the wording: S.B., which supposedly stands for "Sonderbehandlung", i.e. special treatment. This is the first conjecture on your part.
The second conjecture is that the term stands for killing in this letter.
The third conjecture is that the letters of January 1943 and March 1943 talk about the same thing, although they use a different word.
You conclusion rests on each of these conjectures. None of these conjectures have been proven. Therefore, you have not proven your case.
Does your interpretation make any sense? No, why should the term special treatment be used synonymously with special lodging? If the SS has agreed on a particular code word for killing then it does not make any sense to deviate from this expression. Any deviation would only obscure the meaning of the letter. Why was the term "lodging" used at all? Why not "special clothing" or "special bathing" or "special feeding"? Given your mode of reasoning, all of these expression would relate to executions because the letter of March 5 supposedly relates to executions.
Interpreting a text means finding out what it means. The starting point for any interpretation must be the words used and their ordinary meaning. The term "specially lodged" means that these prisoners were lodged separate from the usual camp prisoners. Why? Because "Sonder" means i.e. being separated or distinct from someone or something.
Does this interpretation make any sense in the context of a concentration camp? Sure, thousands of people are lodged in a concentration camp. This is the purpose of the camp. It also makes sense to lodge prisoners unfit for work separate from the labour force. The prisoners unfit for work may be unfit for a reason, for example due to a contagious disease. They are lodged separate from the labour force in order to protect the laborers from infecting themselves.
It would appear that nobody kept records which can be relied on. Even those kept by the Red Cross have been dismissed as worthless, that being so, can anybody point me towards the records which were kept by those whom claimed that 6 million Jews lost their lives at the hands of the Germans? Having done that, there must surely be a list of survivors, has anybody ever seen such a list? Lastly Jews are not immortal, so having made a claim of 6 million killed by the Germans, there must surely be many thousands more whom simply died of old age or sickness where is that list? Or is the truth more along the lines that the figure of 6 million came off the top of somebodies head. Because to accuse Kollerstrom of being a liar there is need of some sort of evidence in support of the claim.
ReplyDeleteInteresting debate.i will say the holocaust skeptics are winning....the holocaust supporters are simply digging themselves a big hole.I urge anyone to pass Bradly Smith's holocaust test.
ReplyDeletePROVIDE ONE AUTOPSY REPORT OF a gas victim of Zyklon b posioning....over 1000 were done,not one mentions gas poisoning.
And where are the remains of 6 million......simple answer these two questions you get the holocaust prize...a life time pension from the German Government
Interesting debate.i will say the holocaust skeptics are winning....the holocaust supporters are simply digging themselves a big hole.I urge anyone to pass Bradly Smith's holocaust test.
ReplyDeletePROVIDE ONE AUTOPSY REPORT OF a gas victim of Zyklon b posioning....over 1000 were done,not one mentions gas poisoning.
And where are the remains of 6 million......simple answer these two questions you get the holocaust prize...a life time pension from the German Government
«Interesting debate.i will say the holocaust skeptics are winning....the holocaust supporters are simply digging themselves a big hole.»
ReplyDeleteThanks for showing once more that wishful thinking is the only thinking that "Revisionists" excel in.
«I urge anyone to pass Bradly Smith's holocaust test.
PROVIDE ONE AUTOPSY REPORT OF a gas victim of Zyklon b posioning....over 1000 were done,not one mentions gas poisoning.»
Pretty irrelevant "test" unless any of those autopsies were conducted on people who had been gassed in Auschwitz-Birkenau or Majdanek, the only camps where mass extermination was carried out with Zyklon B. And who said that it takes an autopsy to prove that mass extermination at these places happened? Bradley Smith, may he rest in peace? He didn't get to set the standards of evidence whereby facts are established in historical research or criminal investigation.
«And where are the remains of 6 million......»
More like 5.5 million, according to my estimate. If you want information about places where the remains of these people are buried, look up the blogs collected under the label graves. And if you like to see corpses of people killed by your Nazi heroes (you sound like you do), I suggest the blogs collected under the label photographs.
«simple answer these two questions you get the holocaust prize...a life time pension from the German Government»
I have a better suggestion: you give me the name (with proof) of a single Jew who was "transited" via the supposed "transit camps" Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka or Chelmno to the territories of the Soviet Union occupied by Nazi Germany during World War II, i.e. to the Reichskommissariat Ostland, the Reichskommissariat Ukraine or the Soviet territories under German military administration. If the proof you present is conclusive according to standards applied in historical research, I'll transfer $1000 to your bank account. With at least 1,419,467 Jews supposedly "transited" in 1942 alone, it should be a piece of cake for you to earn that money. Care to try?
PS:
ReplyDeleteI’ll give you three lists of names from which you may choose your eventual candidate (Jew who entered Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka or Chelmno, then was taken from there to the Reichskommissariat Ostland, the Reichskommissariat Ukraine or the Soviet territories under German military administration):
1. Yad Vashem’s Central Database of Shoah Victims’ Names. Contains about 4.5 million names.
2. German Federal Archives database of German Jews (Jews residing on German territory when the Nazis came to power) who fell victim to Nazi persecution. Contains over 170,000 names.
3. Lists of Jews deported from the Netherlands to Sobibor in 1943. Available on this site of the Dutch archives, files numbered 55 to 63. Over 34,000 names in total.
Of course any name that is not on either of these lists is also OK, adequate proof of "transit" provided.
reblogged this interesting discussion. When I was about 8 years Old I lived in Hanover Then West Germany 1969-1975 I was born in 1964. Father was attached to the BAOR. We visited Belsen and it had a profound effect on me and still does to this day.
ReplyDeleteI remember the Photographs and the Mounds of mass graves I also recall very keenly the News reports of the Soweto Riots in the late 1970's by now we lived in Rural Oxfordshire near Upper Heyford the USAF strategic bombing base and lived near Barford St John Listening Station part of The Echelon Network Father also worked on the defence estate establishment site of Bletchley Park. I remember Protest Graffiti about Vietnam along the Oxford Rs just past Upper Heyford.
It seemed to me then and now that the lessons I thought Belsen must have taught us about war had not been learned.
Quiggleys words.p.232 tragedy and Hope.
´´but criticism should have been directed rather at the hypocrisy and lack
of realism in the ideals of the wartime propaganda and at the lack of honesty of the chief negotiators in carrying on the pretense that these ideals were still in effect while they violated them daily, and necessarily violated them. The settlements were clearly made by secret negotiations, by the Great Powers exclusively, and by power politics. They had to be. No settlements could ever have been made on any other bases. The failure of the chief negotiators (at least the Anglo-Americans) to admit this is regrettable, but behind their
reluctance to admit it is the even more regrettable fact that the lack of political experience and political education of the American and English electorates made it dangerous for the negotiators to admit the facts of life in international political relationships.”
Henry Kissinger, A World Restored: Metternich, Castlereagh and the Problems of Peace, 1812-1822 (1957)
http://letthemconfectsweeterlies.blogspot.se/2017/02/jon-ronson-staring-at-goats-and-alex.html