tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post6203525996556376628..comments2024-03-20T07:25:58.202+00:00Comments on Holocaust Controversies: 5 million non-Jewish victims? (Part 2)Nicholas Terryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14852758011968360596noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-68504525168232111962010-07-17T09:59:29.225+01:002010-07-17T09:59:29.225+01:00What about British victims of terror-bombing and V...What about British victims of terror-bombing and VIs and VIIs?<br /><br />What about Spanish who were bombed in their country?SenorPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00838100938662916922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-69239807701766985442008-05-05T17:26:00.000+01:002008-05-05T17:26:00.000+01:00Hi RobertoI have only a few minuets of free time a...Hi Roberto<BR/>I have only a few minuets of free time at the office.<BR/>The Baltic # seem way too high, the Germans were not shooting those folks, they were in the SS.<BR/>The Commission # may include victims of Soviet repression.<BR/>The Commission files are at the USHMM, I would like to check them out. <BR/>I must run, the April financials are due on Friday.<BR/>HALAPOTAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-25981373229396279052008-05-05T11:34:00.000+01:002008-05-05T11:34:00.000+01:00>British casualties in WW2 are a >puzzle. Wikipedi...>British casualties in WW2 are a >puzzle. Wikipedia has these >figures from the CWGC that are >higher than the official totals >from 1946. <BR/><BR/>>Do you have any thoughts?<BR/><BR/>No idea. The 1946 official totals may have been incomplete.Roberto Muehlenkamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03608133715777146924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-34464641203097741992008-05-05T11:29:00.000+01:002008-05-05T11:29:00.000+01:00>You might loose the ranch in the future if the an...>You might loose the ranch in the future if the anti-communists in Byelorussia do >an honest recount of the death toll in WW2. There was considerable >collaboration there during the war, the NKVD worked overtime to identify and >punish the folks who supported Germany. In the western Ukraine & Byelorussia >600,000 were deported after the war ,160,000 killed in the anti-Soviet guerrilla >war and 300,000 Russians sent in to administer the region. Regarding losses >for each Soviet Republic, there may be a problem with internal migration, >millions were transferred into the interior and could have been listed as missing >and dead in Byelorussia. This is a hunch of mine at this point, the Stalin era >commission claims that the 7.4 million dead are documented cases of >premeditated murder by the Germans. If the Baltic numbers are inflated, then I >would not trust the other figures that total 6.7 million.<BR/><BR/>I didn’t say I trusted the other figures. What I said was that I consider the other figures, or at least some of them, to be closer to reality than those for the Baltic Countries. Regarding Byelorussia, research conducted independently of the Soviet figures by Christian Gerlach points to a total of 900,000 to 950,000 civilian victims of Nazi repression or extermination, thereof 500,000 to 550,000 Jews. The difference between Gerlach’s estimates and the 1,547,000 counted by the Soviet Extraordinary Commission is smaller in proportion than the difference I expect to show if someone should independently research the death toll in the Baltic Countries attributable to "premeditated" actions of the Nazi occupiers. <BR/><BR/>As to the Baltic Countries, if you add up their civilian casualties according to the Wikipedia WWII casualties page, you get a total of 41,000 (Estonia) + 227,000 (Latvia) + 353,000 (Lituania) = 621,000. The Soviet Extraordinary Commission’s total for "premeditated" civilian deaths is 61,307 (Estonia) + 313,000 (Latvia) + 370,000 (Lithuania) = 744,307. If the Wikipedia figures are accurate, the difference between them and the SEC’s figures is small enough to suggest that the problem with the latter is not so much inflation as categorization, i.e. the SEC charted up all recorded civilian deaths among the Baltic populations (including collateral casualties of military operations and victims of Soviet repression) as attributable to "premeditated" actions by the Nazi occupiers.Roberto Muehlenkamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03608133715777146924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-29109746920848359082008-05-05T00:51:00.000+01:002008-05-05T00:51:00.000+01:00Roberto wroteI wouldn't bet the ranch on anything ...Roberto wrote<BR/>I wouldn't bet the ranch on anything if I had one. However, compared to the figures for the Baltic Countries those for Belorussia seem to be a showpiece of accuracy.<BR/><BR/>You might loose the ranch in the future if the anti-communists in Byelorussia do an<BR/>honest recount of the death toll in WW2. There was considerable collaboration there during the war, the NKVD worked overtime to identify and punish the folks who supported Germany. In the western Ukraine & Byelorussia 600,000 were deported after the war ,160,000 killed in the anti-Soviet guerrilla war and 300,000 Russians sent in to administer the region. Regarding losses for each Soviet Republic, there may be a problem with internal migration, millions were transferred into the interior and could have been listed as missing and dead in Byelorussia. This is a hunch of mine at this point, the Stalin era commission claims that the 7.4 million dead are documented cases of premeditated murder by the Germans. If the Baltic numbers are inflated, then I would not trust the other figures that total 6.7 million.HLAPOThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13875064524330266734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-71920838734001261422008-05-05T00:31:00.000+01:002008-05-05T00:31:00.000+01:00RobertoI'm curious to see the upcoming posts on yo...Roberto<BR/>I'm curious to see the upcoming posts on your blog.<BR/><BR/><BR/>British casualties in WW2 are a puzzle. Wikipedia has these figures from the CWGC that are higher than the official totals from 1946. <BR/><BR/>Do you have any thoughts?HLAPOThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13875064524330266734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-50004797502974092642008-05-04T23:55:00.000+01:002008-05-04T23:55:00.000+01:00>I would not bet the ranch on that >statement. I w...>I would not bet the ranch on that >statement. <BR/><BR/>I wouldn't bet the ranch on anything if I had one. However, compared to the figures for the Baltic Countries those for Belorussia seem to be a showpiece of accuracy. <BR/><BR/>>In future a Russian Overmans may >sort this out. At this point in >time we have a demographic war >loss of 26.6 million for the USSR >that lacks a staisfactory >explanation.<BR/><BR/>I'm curious to see the upcoming posts on your blog. :-)Roberto Muehlenkamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03608133715777146924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-46341360566507280672008-05-04T19:57:00.000+01:002008-05-04T19:57:00.000+01:00Not all their figures are as suspect as those rega...Not all their figures are as suspect as those regarding the Baltic countries, however.<BR/><BR/>I would not bet the ranch on that statement. In future a Russian Overmans may sort this out. At this point in time we have a demographic war loss of 26.6 million for the USSR that lacks a staisfactory explanation.HLAPOThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13875064524330266734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-28779661898402224172008-05-04T19:51:00.000+01:002008-05-04T19:51:00.000+01:00Roberto, This is how I view the WW2 losses of the ...Roberto, This is how I view the WW2 losses of the Third Reich<BR/><BR/>The demographic loss of Germany in 1937 borders between the census of 5/39 and 10/46 was 10.7 million. 1.8 million were POWs in allied captivity and 2.3 million were in Poland or the USSR.<BR/>That leaves 6.6 million war dead to explain, not counting war deaths of 800,000 ethnic Germans in eastern Europe and 400,000 from Austria. In total 7.8 million war dead for the Third Reich that need to be explained with credible sources.<BR/><BR/>Lets plot out how they died:<BR/><BR/>1- Military war dead- 5,318,000 per R. Overmans Deutsche militärische Verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg.<BR/>2- Air raid deaths- 400,000 per Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg, Bd. 9/1- 370,000 Germany plus 24,000 Austria.<BR/>3- Deaths in East Europe –Soviet war atrocities, expulsions and forced labour in the USSR 635,000 –per data from German government in 1989 cited by Overmans . The figure of 2.2 million expulsion deaths published in 1958 has been proved to be a gross exaggeration based on conjecture. <BR/>4- Excess civilian deaths due to post war famine 1945-46 800,000 demographic data per Fromkin<BR/>5- Balance to be explained 700,000<BR/><BR/>In my opinion the balance to be explained of 700,000 would comprise 240,000 German and Austrian Jews, 30,000 Gypsies, 150,000 T-4 victims and 280,000 other deaths at the hands of the Nazis including 130,000 political prisoners.HLAPOThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13875064524330266734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-90964983660030536602008-05-04T19:01:00.000+01:002008-05-04T19:01:00.000+01:00>Roberto wrote >130,000 opponents on political or ...>Roberto wrote <BR/>>130,000 opponents on political or religious grounds<BR/><BR/>>The guy who stold the coffee was just a garden variety thief.<BR/><BR/>That’s why I accept the figure only if also including the "garden variety thief" type of prisoners, among others. <BR/><BR/>>In the case of Germany I believe a figure of 500-600,000 is reasonable using Kogon and the T-4 data. If >160K die from 33-39, then another 140K from 40-45 seems reasonable, add 150K T-4 victims and we are >at 450K. Data on aggravated deaths on persons relased early and summary executions will bump up that >number to 600K.<BR/><BR/>The problem is that an essential element of the starting point for your extrapolations (Kogon’s data for 33-39) stands a good chance of being a distinct exaggeration. <BR/><BR/>>Roberto wrote<BR/>>How many deaths in the occupied territories did the Soviet State Extraordinary Commission count in total, >and how did it establish which of these deaths were "premeditated" by the occupiers and which were not? >What was the commission’s criterion for counting deaths as "premeditated deaths"?<BR/><BR/>>Look at the numbers for the Baltic states, they are as soft as shit. 744,000 dead due<BR/>>premeditated extermination. I can accept 250,000 Jewish Holoocaust deaths, but 500,000 Baltic >Christians, that is not credible. The numbers for the other Republics are <BR/>>suspect in my opinion.<BR/> <BR/>Also in mine. It may be that what the Soviet Extraordinary Commission did was to chart up all war-related deaths they recorded in the Nazi-occupied territories, or at least all violent deaths (i.e. including collateral victims of military actions, possibly also the Poles killed in Volhynia by the UPA and perhaps even victims of Soviet repression in the Baltic Countries and former eastern Poland) as "premeditated deaths" attributable to the Nazi occupiers. <BR/><BR/>Not all their figures are as suspect as those regarding the Baltic countries, however. The figure for Belorussia, for instance, is not that far above Gerlach’s estimate of about 500,000 – 550,000 Jews plus ca. 400,000 other civilians killed by the Nazi occupiers. And the figure for Russia doesn’t seem all that unreasonable if it includes the victims of the siege of Leningrad, which I don’t know if it does.Roberto Muehlenkamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03608133715777146924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-1617847748559428892008-05-04T18:32:00.000+01:002008-05-04T18:32:00.000+01:00An essential piece to the puzzle is the Soviet cen...An essential piece to the puzzle is the Soviet census of 1959 which shows 800,000 Poles surving the war in the USSR. They were considered dead by the bean counters in Poland after the war when the figure of 6 million war dead was compiled. The detailed <BR/>breakdown of the 1959 Cenus by ethnic group for each each district is in the Library of Congress.<BR/><BR/>Trust me, putting the pieces of this puzzle together was interesting.HLAPOThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13875064524330266734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-89699231604271022512008-05-04T18:24:00.000+01:002008-05-04T18:24:00.000+01:00Also you should consultPopulation changes in Europ...Also you should consult<BR/>Population changes in Europe since 1939;<BR/><BR/>LC Control No.: 54022887 <BR/>LCCN Permalink: http://lccn.loc.gov/54022887<BR/><BR/>Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.)<BR/>Personal Name: Frumkin, Grzegorz, 1895- <BR/><BR/>Main Title: Population changes in Europe since 1939; a study of population changes in Europe during and since World War II, as shown by the balance sheets of twenty-four European countries.<BR/>Published/Created: London, Allen & Unwin, 1951.<BR/>Description: 191 p. diagrs., map. 23 cm.HLAPOThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13875064524330266734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-62997775099589157662008-05-04T18:19:00.000+01:002008-05-04T18:19:00.000+01:00The pieces to the puzzle of Polish losses in WW2 w...The pieces to the puzzle of Polish losses in WW2 will be found in. <BR/><BR/>The Zielinski monograph I mentioned.<BR/><BR/>Schectman, Joseph B. <BR/>Title is Postwar Population Transfers in Europe 1945-1955<BR/> <BR/> U.S. Bureau of the Census The Population of Poland Ed. W. Parker Mauldin, Washington- <BR/>1954<BR/><BR/>LC Control No.: 54061765 <BR/>LCCN Permalink: http://lccn.loc.gov/54061765<BR/><BR/>Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.)<BR/>Personal Name: Mauldin, W. Parker (Wayman Parker)<BR/><BR/>Main Title: The population of Poland, by W. Parker Mauldin and Donald S. Akers.<BR/>Published/Created: Washington, U.S. Govt. Print. Off., 1954.<BR/>Description: vi, 198 p. illus., maps. 26 cm.HLAPOThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13875064524330266734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-74528845525927094102008-05-04T18:06:00.000+01:002008-05-04T18:06:00.000+01:00Roberto wroteHow many deaths in the occupied terri...Roberto wrote<BR/>How many deaths in the occupied territories did the Soviet State Extraordinary Commission count in total, and how did it establish which of these deaths were "premeditated" by the occupiers and which were not? What was the commission’s criterion for counting deaths as "premeditated deaths"?<BR/><BR/>Look at the numbers for the Baltic states, they are as soft as shit. 744,000 dead due<BR/>premeditated extermination. I can accept 250,000 Jewish Holoocaust deaths, but 500,000 Baltic Christians, that is not credible. The numbers for the other Republics are <BR/>suspect in my opinion.HLAPOThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13875064524330266734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-36578431167836545922008-05-04T17:54:00.000+01:002008-05-04T17:54:00.000+01:00200,000 Polish citizens in the annexed territories...200,000 Polish citizens in the annexed territories were drafted into the Soviet Army from 1940-41.<BR/>Assuming 1/2 were Poles and that almost all men aged 18-22 in the Soviet Army in 1941 did not survive the war, it is reasonable to assume that they are part of Poland's overall demographic loss.HLAPOThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13875064524330266734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-86534489555437278282008-05-04T17:49:00.000+01:002008-05-04T17:49:00.000+01:00Roberto wroteI have less of a problem with Wikiped...Roberto wrote<BR/><BR/>I have less of a problem with Wikipedia than with R.J.Rummel<BR/><BR/>We agree on R.J.Rummel, I have read<BR/>his books. In the case of Germany I believe a figure of 500-600,000 is reasonable using Kogon and the T-4 data. If 160K die from 33-39, then another 140K from 40-45 seems reasonable, add 150K T-4 victims and we are at 450K. Data on aggravated deaths on persons relased early and summary executions will bump up that number to 600K.HLAPOThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13875064524330266734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-28680483875749768002008-05-04T17:40:00.000+01:002008-05-04T17:40:00.000+01:00Roberto wrote 130,000 opponents on political or re...Roberto wrote <BR/>130,000 opponents on political or religious grounds<BR/><BR/>The guy who stold the coffee was just a garden variety thief.HLAPOThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13875064524330266734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-73590860973961269792008-05-04T17:36:00.000+01:002008-05-04T17:36:00.000+01:00Roberto wroteHow did Zielinski establish these rat...Roberto wrote<BR/>How did Zielinski establish these rates,<BR/><BR/>Zielinski worked for the US census bureau and published his monograph in 1954. He worked up the numbers using Polish sources published after the war.<BR/><BR/> It is available at the Library of Congress.<BR/><BR/>LC Control No.: 54007562 <BR/>LCCN Permalink: http://lccn.loc.gov/54007562<BR/><BR/>Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.)<BR/>Personal Name: Zieliński, Henryk.<BR/><BR/>Main Title: Population changes in Poland, 1939-1950.<BR/>Published/Created: [New York] Mid-European Studies Center, National Committee for a Free Europe [1954]<BR/>Description: 101 p. 28 cm.HLAPOThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13875064524330266734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-53504529457362514802008-05-04T17:35:00.000+01:002008-05-04T17:35:00.000+01:00>Roberto, >I do apologize, Thorwal is real name of...>Roberto, <BR/>>I do apologize, Thorwal is real name of Hlapot<BR/><BR/>So it’s yourself. Please to meet you, then. <BR/><BR/>Maybe you can tell me more about your breakdown of losses among non-Jewish Poles, like sources and so. Not that have a problem with your figures, but the more detail, the better.Roberto Muehlenkamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03608133715777146924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-46574636563082405092008-05-04T17:31:00.000+01:002008-05-04T17:31:00.000+01:00>Roberto wrote>Who is "Thorwald"? >Thorwald has no...>Roberto wrote<BR/>>Who is "Thorwald"? <BR/><BR/>>Thorwald has no academic connections, he works in the real world as a financial analyst.<BR/><BR/>His full name and the title of what he has published about this subject may be of interest nevertheless.Roberto Muehlenkamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03608133715777146924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-6913200560852064862008-05-04T17:29:00.000+01:002008-05-04T17:29:00.000+01:00Roberto, I do apologize, Thorwal is real name of H...Roberto, <BR/>I do apologize, Thorwal is real name of HlapotHLAPOThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13875064524330266734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-75470152496112972132008-05-04T17:28:00.000+01:002008-05-04T17:28:00.000+01:00>Source R. J. Rummel posted on Wikipedia. I checke...>Source R. J. Rummel posted on Wikipedia. I checked it at the library. This time Wikipedia was right.<BR/><BR/>I have less of a problem with Wikipedia than with R.J.Rummel. The guy claims 61,911,000 murdered by the Communist regimes of the USSR, for instance. He seems to have a tendency to "kill" more people than any other scholar. Have a look at his website: http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM <BR/><BR/>>It is not surprising that statistics on German victims were not compiled in post Germany.<BR/><BR/>German historian Helmuth Auerbach must have based himself on something when he mentioned ca. 100,000 German victims of the "euthanasia" killings and 130,000 opponents on political or religious grounds.Roberto Muehlenkamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03608133715777146924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-66883776836190329872008-05-04T17:26:00.000+01:002008-05-04T17:26:00.000+01:00Roberto wroteWho is "Thorwald"? Thorwald has no ac...Roberto wrote<BR/>Who is "Thorwald"? <BR/><BR/>Thorwald has no academic connections, he works in the real world as a financial analyst.HLAPOThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13875064524330266734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-60651841068659736862008-05-04T17:17:00.000+01:002008-05-04T17:17:00.000+01:00Roberto wroteI’m sure this happened, but to what e...Roberto wrote<BR/>I’m sure this happened, but to what extent? Do you know of any sources that might allow for quantification<BR/><BR/>Source R. J. Rummel posted on Wikipedia. I checked it at the library. This time Wikipedia was right.<BR/>I know of true story of a railway employee who was arrested for stealing coffee. His wife served the coffee to her friends. This was wartime coffee was scarce, another lady reported her to the Gestapo. Her husband was sent to Dachau and released early because he was dying of TB. The Germans who told me this story thought it was very amusing. <BR/>Another case of a man who left Germany after the war. He told me about the death of his mother. In 1945 when he was 17, his mother told him to go and hide in the hills, she did not want him to die in the German uniform .like his father. He ran to the hills, the Nazis tied his mother to a tree to force him to return. His mom cried out “ Teddy stay there, don’t give yourself up” In 1945 the Americans came and he was free. After the war he could work only for the Americans, the local townsfolk considered him a traitor and would not speak to him.<BR/>Also, you may remember the US media reported that the local council in Berlin refused to rename a street after Marlene Dietrich , she opposed the Nazis and fled Hitler Germany. She was still considered a traitor in 1992 in the eyes of the Germans. <BR/>It is not surprising that statistics on German victims were not compiled in post Germany.HLAPOThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13875064524330266734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-91044325885383253672008-05-04T17:01:00.000+01:002008-05-04T17:01:00.000+01:00>Polish( non Jews) losses>Thorwalds estimate>100,0...>Polish( non Jews) losses<BR/><BR/>>Thorwalds estimate<BR/><BR/>>100,000 military dead<BR/>>50,000 dead 1939 campaign<BR/>>300,000 famine/disease dead<BR/>>30,000 ethnic German dead after war( counted as Poles)<BR/>>120,000 Wehrmacht dead <BR/>>200,000 dead in Soviet deportations & repression <BR/>>100,000 in Red Army 1941-45<BR/>>100,000 killed by Ukrainians<BR/>>200,000 dead 1944 Warsaw uprising<BR/>>500,000 victims of Nazi reprisals <BR/>>200,000 dead in Nazi camps mostly economic offenses, blackmarket etc.<BR/>>1,900,000 Total Polish( non Jews) losses<BR/><BR/>Thanks. That gives us about a million dead from famine/diseases, Nazi reprisals and Nazi camps together, plus an unknown part of the victims of the 1939 campaign and the 1944 Warsaw Uprising who were not collateral casualties but victims of German executions/massacres. <BR/><BR/>Who is "Thorwald"? There’s a German author by the name of Jürgen Thorwald, but I don’t think it is him you are referring to.Roberto Muehlenkamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03608133715777146924noreply@blogger.com