tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post4053525820315684171..comments2024-03-17T20:28:40.281+00:00Comments on Holocaust Controversies: A (not so) short debunking of the "Holocaust Deprogramming Course".Nicholas Terryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14852758011968360596noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-68290687916937434632018-05-03T18:11:33.481+01:002018-05-03T18:11:33.481+01:001. Because they saw no other way of getting rid of...1. Because they saw no other way of getting rid of Jews.<br /><br />2. The rhetoric was partially separatist - depending on the group being talked about (or being addressed). It's not an either/or situation.Sergey Romanovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04063444062099331337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-23729175266434249282018-05-03T16:27:49.066+01:002018-05-03T16:27:49.066+01:00Hello, sergey.
As for what you said I apologize f...Hello, sergey.<br /><br />As for what you said I apologize for that, I think I should have read your comment more carefully before I answered, although I have some doubts about what you mentioned in your response to my first comment (which I should mention at the time):<br /><br />"Racism does not necessarily imply an open enmity or an urge to exterminate."<br /><br />So, why did the Nazis exterminate millions of people for racial reasons? (not talking about all the murdered groups)<br /><br />"Racial separatism, a form of racism, does not even necessarily presuppose racial supremacy (although, of course, more in words than in deeds)."<br /><br />But, that I understood the Nazi ideology was supremacist (or you say it for other separatist groups)<br /><br />PS: I know that I had said in my last comment that this would be the last one (worth the roundness), but I just wanted to leave that clarification so that I would not be misinterpreted<br /><br />ATT: Ngy150Ngy150https://www.blogger.com/profile/09257106482809375877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-35605472070877027292018-05-03T08:35:54.412+01:002018-05-03T08:35:54.412+01:00I'm pretty sure most of your questions were an...I'm pretty sure most of your questions were answered in my initial reply to you which you seem to have ignored.Sergey Romanovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04063444062099331337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-65776438271907059942018-05-02T20:43:45.641+01:002018-05-02T20:43:45.641+01:00Hello nicholas, again thanks for responding to my ...Hello nicholas, again thanks for responding to my comment and sorry for the delay<br /><br />As for Degrelle, I do not know what is wrong with his claim about Nazi racism, that is, Degrelle was a Holocaust denier and I am aware that his words may have been a big lie or simple distortion, but I can not find the truth nothing bad about what I mention taking into account that Hitler himself also said that German racism was not based on hatred or opposition to other races. And yes, I am also aware that much of that confession would be contradictory if we take into account his opinion about the races mentioned by Hitler himself in his autobiography (and maybe even that confession was a "revisionist" manipulation, as be habitual in them), although it is something of which I will continue investigating.<br /><br />I know you also mentioned that the alliances with soldiers of other races were for reasons of military convenience and using the logic of "the enemy of my enemy", but then so that the Germans had good relations with them (as can be see in the images of the "revisionist" page that you present in my first comment)? Why were not they treated as "sub-humans", as well as the Jews? Why was there never a plan to exterminate other non-"Aryan" peoples as well as the Jewish people (and to clarify that the Gypsy people and other groups were also systematically assassinated for racial reasons, but my question refers to why Was not the same thing done with other races or so that they were treated in a manner similar to that of the German soldiers)? What was the difference between one and the other? What did not want to impose the superiority of the race "Aryan Germanic" ?. As I said before, I do not intend to deny anything, only sincerely I am someone who wants to explore the reality of the facts not only of the Second World War or the Holocaust, but of anything through what different sources of reliable research can offer me, If they are not able to answer my questions there is no problem, I am aware that I can and I must investigate on my own as well (which I have been doing now).<br /><br />Anyway, I plan to leave my conversation here because I do not want to keep moving away from the original issue of the publication with unnecessary things, I appreciate your time and patience when responding to my comments, many successes.<br /><br />PD: I do not know if I could serve you, but I found some denier videos on youtube that would be interesting to see them in their publication of "rejecting the negation of youtube":<br /><br />Ursula Haverbeck "discredits" the holocaust https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPa_QeV9KDM&bpctr=1525289892<br /><br />Interview by Ernst Zundel to Professor Jew Roger Dommergue https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usJ9cnPjA9Y<br /><br />bishop richard williamson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHhdBzPH_zM<br /><br />I know that these videos are of a longer duration (with the exception of williamson's which I think is incomplete and if it becomes so I apologize for that) than those presented in the original publication (I think), but if there is no serious problem interesting to see them refuted.<br /><br />ATT: Ngy150Ngy150https://www.blogger.com/profile/09257106482809375877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-90293689317720638122018-04-28T17:10:21.763+01:002018-04-28T17:10:21.763+01:00Degrelle's claims regarding Nazi racism were d...Degrelle's claims regarding Nazi racism were deliberately disingenuous and dishonest. Degrelle was himself a Holocaust denier and minimiser of Nazi atrocities. <br /><br />One could undoubtedly find many other 'stirring' quotes from Nazis about how their racism was positive, idealistic etc, but the reality was rather different: passing laws that institutionalised racist discrimination and occupying much of Europe using policies that were colonialist and oppressive, based on racist ideas.<br /><br />There were certainly different conceptions of what racism meant to different parts of the Nazi movement - Christian Gerlach has a very good chapter on this in 'The Extermination of the European Jews' (Cambridge, 2016), and how ideas of race informed specific policies in different phases of the Third Reich or WWII certainly changed. <br /><br />It's also pretty obvious that Nazi ideas of racism shared much in common with the concepts of race prevailing in other European colonialist empires or indeed in the United States; underlying concepts such as Social Darwinism and eugenics were also widely held in Sweden, the US etc - which is why other countries enacted compulsory sterilisation programs as well. The Nazis were also influenced by non-German practices, as James Whitman has argued convincingly in Hitler's American model: the United States and the making of Nazi race law.<br /><br />The question of how racism functioned in the Third Reich is thus a hell of a lot more complex than a few soundbite quotes can address, and whataboutery is also not very helpful for a proper understanding. <br /><br />In analysing Nazi actions before and during the war, one must in any case always, always look for economic, military, diplomatic, political and PR/propaganda factors among other things, whether one is discussing German society, the course of WWII or the Holocaust. <br />Nicholas Terryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14852758011968360596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-33777170474207583292018-04-28T16:28:34.184+01:002018-04-28T16:28:34.184+01:00nicholas and sergey, thank you very much for respo...nicholas and sergey, thank you very much for responding to my comment and apologizing if it has been uncomfortable considering that it has nothing to do with the main theme of the publication, which is the holocaust.<br /><br />As for the subject of jesse owens, I would like to mention that in an interview in 2009 with the German journalist Siegfried Mischner he had mentioned that owens had in his wallet a photograph of Hitler in which he extended his hand. Owens, who thought that newspapers had unfairly treated the Führer in his reporting, in the 1960s tried to convince Mischner and his colleagues to change the most accepted, but wrong, version of Hitler's treatment of himself. Mischner said Owens showed him that picture and told him that "it was one of his best moments." Mischner added: "[The photo] had been taken behind the box of honor and therefore had not been covered by the press. I watched her, he was shaking Hitler's hand! "<br /><br />and in his online mail statement: "All my colleagues are dead, Owens, too. I know it's the last chance to tell the truth. [But] I have no idea where the photo is or if it still exists. "<br /><br />And as for Germanic racism, there is a Hitler statement about his race idealism in which he says something completely different to what anyone could have heard, and this was shortly before his death:<br /><br /> "The fact that a race wants to stay pure demonstrates precisely its life force and its will to live, it seems normal for each one to have their racial pride, and this does not mean to despise others. that maybe the Chinese were racially inferior, we both belong to old cultures and frankly admit that their tradition is greater than ours, they have every reason to be proud of it, just as we are proud of the cultural circle to which we belong. I think it will be so much easier to reach an understanding with the Chinese and Japanese the more they persist in their racial pride. "<br /><br />Even a foreign volunteer from the German army Leon degrelle, also writes about this matter:<br /><br />"German racism has been deliberately distorted. It was never an anti-`other race 'racism. It was a pro-German racism. Concerned with making the German race strong and healthy in every way. Hitler was not interested in having millions of degenerates, if it was in his power not to have them. Today one finds a rampant addiction to alcohol and drugs everywhere. Hitler cared that German families were healthy, he cared that they raise healthy children for the renewal of a healthy nation. German racism meant rediscovering the creative values of their own race, re discovering their culture. The national socialist racism was not against the other races, it was because of its own race. His goal was the defense and improvement of his race, and he wished that all other races would do the same for themselves. "<br /><br />Even the black Reverend Ray Hagins gives his opinion about hitler:<br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVBDXSWOJSM<br /><br />I reiterate, I do not like in any way to promote "revisionist" propaganda, but I always find it interesting to know things like these that make you see the other side of the coin in history (although as long as they do not present themselves with bad intentions)<br /><br />PD: I really liked your publication about rejecting the denial of youtube, very good work<br /><br />ATT: Ngy150Ngy150https://www.blogger.com/profile/09257106482809375877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-24643863507289474382018-04-28T11:58:56.186+01:002018-04-28T11:58:56.186+01:00I'm not sure why you think that non-German mil...I'm not sure why you think that non-German military service with the Nazis isn't mentioned by "the media" or is somehow unknown - the issue of collaboration continues to be highly politicised in for example the Baltic states, and thus gets a fair bit of media attention when controversies arise over the commemoration of Waffen-SS veterans in Latvia or Estonia.<br /><br />The units and formations of non-German soldiers all have their own Wikipedia pages and are quite well researched.<br /><br />You can *easily* check by googling for example 'Indische Legion' or 'Indian Legion German Army, which immediately yields stories from the BBC on this subject<br />http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3684288.stm<br /><br />The issue of Muslim soldiers fighting for the Nazis, i.e. the Arab Legion as well as the Bosnian Muslim 'Handschar' division, has received probably disproportionate attention in the past 20 or so years because of the ongoing Middle Eastern conflict; right-wing pro-Israel commentators heavily emphasise Nazi-Muslim cooperation. Therefore one sees stories like this one, about newly discovered film footage of the Nazis' Arab Legion:<br />https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4645922,00.html<br />or this one, in Spanish, about the Arab Legion<br />http://www.abc.es/historia/abci-legion-arabes-nazis-lucho-junto-hitler-201510280129_noticia.html<br />or this one, giving an overview of Nazi-Muslim cooperation that mentions the military formations<br />http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/muslimische-ns-helfer-hakenkreuz-und-halbmond-1.3015455#redirectedFromLandingpage<br />There are several hundred recent news stories mentioning the Handschar Division in Google News.<br /><br />But measuring media coverage is not a good test of how widely something is knowable - most people likely hear about these things from reading on the internet or by reading about these issues in books. If one is interested in WWII or the Third Reich, then it does not take very long to realise that the Nazis recruited quite large numbers of non-German soldiers for reasons of military expediency, or that they allied themselves with non-'Aryan' groups using 'enemy of my enemy' logic. Nicholas Terryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14852758011968360596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-72811333824700407752018-04-28T11:30:36.564+01:002018-04-28T11:30:36.564+01:00The treatment of 'non-Aryans' or ambiguous...The treatment of 'non-Aryans' or ambiguous cases inside the Wehrmacht only confirms the institutionally racist practices of the Third Reich. Polish, French and Luxemburger nationals were conscripted into the Wehrmacht from annexed territories after being declared as Germans or signing up to the Deutsche Volksliste. These soldiers suffered a much harsher discipline regime and were more frequently executed for desertion or nonconformity of one kind or another. Ethnic Germans ('Volksdeutsche') were frequently derided if they were not entirely fluent in German, and the proportion of Volksdeutsche in a Waffen-SS unit was regarded by Hitler as a marker of its quality - units with too many Volksdeutsche were not regarded as elite. <br /><br />The small minority of German Roma and Sinti ('Gypsies') were excluded from the Wehrmacht in 1937, then after a number of them were conscripted anyway, excluded once again in 1941 and 1942. A number of Roma and Sinti who had been in the Wehrmacht were later deported to the 'Gypsy Camp' in Auschwitz - this page provides a good example of what happened to one family where several brothers were thrown out of the Wehrmacht:<br />http://www.sintiundroma.de/en/sinti-roma/the-national-socialist-genocide-of-the-sinti-and-roma/deprivation-of-rights/marginalisation/exclusion-from-the-wehrmacht.html<br /><br />Similarly, and contrary to the much repeated claim of "150,000 Jewish soldiers in the Wehrmacht", Mischlinge of the 1st degree - i.e. half-Jews - were formally prohibited from military service before the war, and when a number found themselves conscripted anyway, they were ordered to be removed from the Wehrmacht in April 1940.<br />https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%BCdischer_Mischling#Wehrmacht<br /><br />There were only 64,000 Mischlinge of the 1st degree and 42,000 of the 2nd degree in Greater Germany as of the 1939 census, i.e. all ages and both sexes - there were 7000 more part-German 'Geltungsjuden' who belonged to the Jewish religion, and who thus absolutely don't count here - so the claim of "150,000" part-Jewish soldiers is a colossal exaggeration. <br /><br />A small number of officers were declared 'Aryan' by fiat, mostly before the war, but the practice of limited exemptions from racial laws doesn't negate the underlying racism.<br />Nicholas Terryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14852758011968360596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-247549458853229102018-04-28T11:29:55.085+01:002018-04-28T11:29:55.085+01:00The claim that Hitler shook hands with Jesse Owens...The claim that Hitler shook hands with Jesse Owens at the 1936 Olympics is false, and a photo showing them together is a fake. He had in fact snubbed an African-American athlete on the first day of the Olympics, but then was told to be consistent - he no longer shook hands but apparently nodded at Owens:<br />https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/jesse-owens-and-hitler-handshake/<br /><br />Non-German soldiers fighting for the Wehrmacht or Waffen-SS served in segregated units, which is pretty much the definition of racism. <br /><br />The 'Osttruppen', 'Ostlegionen' and other auxiliaries from the Soviet Union were not regarded as the equal of German soldiers - they had their own ranks in many cases, and were awarded their own medals rather than being eligible for the full range of German decorations. They were recruited on an 'enemy of my enemy' basis as anti-Soviet forces, but this did not mean a recognition of national aspirations. This is especially clear with the much better treated Baltic and Ukrainian-Galician Waffen-SS divisions - the Germans had no intention of granting these peoples independence or sovereignty after the war. <br /><br />Non-European soldiers were extremely few in number - the Arab and Indian Legions, amounting to two regiments, recruited respectively from French colonial territory and from British colonial troops captured by the Axis. The Japanese fielded a much larger anti-colonial force of captured Indian troops. In the First World War, Wilhelmine Germany made similar attempts to turn Indian POWs against the Entente and exploit anti-colonial sentiments. <br /><br />However, these examples don't provide meaningful counter-evidence against the well-documented evidence of racism inside Nazi Germany and in the occupied territories. <br /><br />Indeed, they only provide more evidence for racism, since the fielding of segregated military units as auxiliaries is a classic feature of imperialist, colonialist and racist regimes. Nicholas Terryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14852758011968360596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-91627349855065076432018-04-28T11:04:19.564+01:002018-04-28T11:04:19.564+01:00Racism doesn't necessarily imply open enmity o...Racism doesn't necessarily imply open enmity or urge for extermination.<br /><br />Racial separatism - a form of racism - doesn't even necessarily presuppose racial supremacy (though of course more in word than in deed).<br /><br />Racism doesn't exclude collaboration with other races.<br /><br />The Nation of Islam notoriously visited George Lincoln Rockwell's American Nazi Party gatherings. It doesn't mean that both groups aren't deeply racist.<br /><br />The Nazis obviously would be against non-Jewish "non-Aryans" *mixing* with the Germans.<br /><br />This excluded neither collaboration, nor even, at times, a certain amount of respect for other (non-Jewish) groups (as long as they remained on their territory, not in the German Lebensraum).<br /><br />Hence there is nothing at all surprising in the fact that the Nazis were not against non-Jewish "non-Aryans" serving alongside them, especially due to the practical wartime considerations. That "practical" thinking was not alien to the Nazis is obvious - see their pact with Stalin, of all people.<br /><br />Also don't forget that many varieties of racism exist. E.g. many white supremacists will acknowledge that ethnic Russians are white, while some won't, etc. Various strains of racist thinking also existed in the Nazi Germany, different strains prevailing at different times.<br /><br />To be honest, I don't see what the problem is supposed to be.Sergey Romanovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04063444062099331337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-50892791434802611342018-04-28T04:12:49.132+01:002018-04-28T04:12:49.132+01:00Hello guys, I am very new in the subject and since...Hello guys, I am very new in the subject and since I know the "revisionism" of the holocaust I have worked miracles to find pages like this that could help me with my research, I really appreciate it a lot, but I would like you to help me in something that This is related to the debate I had with a "revisionist" about a week ago, and it was on the subject of Nazi racism, this "revisionist" asked me why, if Hitler and the German people were racists, there were hundreds of non- Aryans in the German army (both the Wehrmacht and the Waffen SS) during the Second World War including Arabs, Africans, Asians and even Orthodox Christian opponents of the Stalinist regime and gypsies, as well as why Hitler shook hands with the African-American athlete jesse owens at the olympic games in berlin and the treatment he received in germany was totally different from the one he received in his country of origin united states<br /><br />I know that it has nothing to do with the subject of this publication and they are not obliged to respond if they wish, but I would like them to give me some collaboration, since unfortunately I have not found a book, source or reference that helps me to have a detailed explanation on this, I would also like to know why something like that has never been mentioned by the media, is something that I myself formulated from the first moment I knew and sincerely every day the story was It makes it more confusing and difficult to understand because of its certain irregularities, although with this I do not want you to misinterpret me and think that I deny what is already written, I only say that whenever you know something new that has never been said, things can turn out more complicated than it seems. Finally, leaving this out and as I said before thank you and excellent publication, I will be waiting more like this in future publications<br /><br />PS: just in case you are interested I leave the link of the page that the "revisionist" user left me during our debate that spoke specifically on this subject with the title "the multi-racial army at the service of Adolf Hitler":<br /><br />https://quenosocultan.wordpress.com/2013/05/29/el-ejercito-multi-racial-al-servicio-de-adolf-hitler/<br /><br />I do not like to advertise "revisionist" pages of any kind, but I only add it so that you can analyze it on your own<br /><br />ATT: Ngy150Ngy150https://www.blogger.com/profile/09257106482809375877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-7323066639690548862018-04-27T14:53:00.501+01:002018-04-27T14:53:00.501+01:00Hi Roberto.
This is acknowledged. I’ll try to dia...Hi Roberto.<br /><br />This is acknowledged. I’ll try to dial it down. Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02660486969581542489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-77708151280224717892018-04-27T14:34:12.613+01:002018-04-27T14:34:12.613+01:00@Nathan
«Your failure to grasp something as simpl...@Nathan<br /><br />«Your failure to grasp something as simple as a drainage system shows that your speculations about “better” methods are worthless, since quite frankly, you’re an idjit who don’t know what you’re talking aboit.» <br /><br />The rest of your reply is great, but please refrain from name-calling. It's against our guidelines.Roberto Muehlenkamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03608133715777146924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-16067397825679291732018-04-27T14:31:05.649+01:002018-04-27T14:31:05.649+01:00«Roberto, the numbers for population transfers int...«Roberto, the numbers for population transfers into the Soviet Union, deaths in Gulags and work camps are not “well known”.»<br /><br />To you maybe, Again, do some reading. <br /><br />«Jews were oppressed under Stalin.» <br /><br />He didn't particularly like them, for sure. But from there to mass-murdering them it's a long go. The closest Stalin came to that was the "Doctor's Plot" shortly before his death. Read about it. <br /><br />«Truth about happened there is embarrassing for Russian history.»<br /><br />There may be many embarrassing truths in Russian history, but there's no evidence that mass-murdering Jews is one of them. <br /><br />«The Wikipedia article on the Gulags does not even mention how many Jews were in those.» <br /><br />And so? Is Wikipedia your only source of information? <br /><br />«Pit burning of corpses is absurd, so are your cremation times.»<br /><br />Any substantiation, or are hollow claims the best you can provide? <br /><br />«The best way to dispose of a lot of animal carcasses would be a rendering plant or burial somewhere the corpses would not pollute the water table. There is no evidence of this at Auschwitz which was like a swamp.» <br /><br />A rendering plant would involve extra costs and leave more evidence behind, as far as I know. So would burying the corpses in an area with a lower water table, to which they would first have to be transported. Your proposed solutions don't exactly meet the requirements of your friends, and they are neither cost-effective. <br /><br />«Nazis could have gassed the Jews in the tail cars in a tunnel with the fumes from the coal-fired engine.» <br /><br />We don't know what they would have done if you had been there to advise them. We know what they actually did (which means that coulda-shoulda-woulda considerations are strictly for the birds). And what they actually did was more practical than gassing people in a train and then having to drag the corpses out of every wagon, among other difficulties. Any idea of how the coal-fired engine's fumes would have been directed into every wagon, by the way? I'm not particularly interested in your ideas of how best to kill people, just curious. <br /><br />«Could have used the exhaust gas from the crematoria.» <br /><br />For gassing in trains? You're not practical indeed.Roberto Muehlenkamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03608133715777146924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-48895451665584239452018-04-27T09:45:15.907+01:002018-04-27T09:45:15.907+01:00That's a tertiary source from 1996, working fr...That's a tertiary source from 1996, working from out-dated information that is demonstrably exaggerated. You can find secondary sources repeating the out-dated, exaggerated numbers. <br /><br />In the 1990s, both Russian and Polish historians published work using the actual Soviet documents regarding the deportations of Polish citizens from the Soviet-annexed regions of eastern Poland, and the 1.5 million number was found to be exaggerated by a factor of about four - the main deportations totalled around 315,000, with the former Polish regions of Lithuania (Vilnius/Wilno) adding a small amount to this.<br /><br />This work is accepted by leading demographers in Poland such as Andrzej Gawryszewski. We published the actual transport statistics more than a decade ago, courtesy of info provided by Gawryszewski (see part 6 below):<br />http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.co.uk/2007/10/crazy-world-of-walter-sanning-part-5.html<br />http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.co.uk/2007/10/crazy-world-of-walter-sanning-part-6.html<br /><br />There were other routes for survival than simply being deported - labour conscription/migration, refugee flight in 1941 in particular - so not all Polish citizens of Jewish origin who survived had been deported in 1940-41. <br /><br />The breakdown of *estimates* is as follows<br />deported, arrested or conscripted - low 101,600 high 115,600<br />labour volunteers low 40,000 high 53,000<br />emigrated via Lithuania to Japan, Turkey, Iran low 5000 high 6000<br />totals low 146,500 high 174,600<br /><br />The biggest variable is the number evacuated or fleeing as refugees in 1941, with the high estimate at 210,000 and no attempt to provide a low estimate. The authors in Shelter from the Holocaust regard the high estimate as much too high. <br /><br />It wouldn't, however, make much difference since the Jewish population of Poland was around 3.3 million in 1939, while estimates of the number of Jews from the prewar Polish borders who died range from 2.7 to 3 million. Considering the number of survivors liberated from Nazi camps or who emerged from hiding or the partisans, the higher estimates for the number of refugees fleeing in 1941 would still fit Raul Hilberg's total of 2.7 million Polish Jews who perished during the Holocaust. <br /><br />The same datasets I've been quoting note that 1.3-1.43 million Polish Jews remained on Soviet territory at the start of Barbarossa, depending on the number thought to have fled from western Poland in 1939 - the number who perished from eastern Poland is estimated between 1.1 and 1.2 million, e.g. by Yitzhak Arad (who doesn't ignore Soviet actions or refugee flight).<br /><br />There is considerable evidence from postwar Poland that Jews repatriated from the USSR made up the greater part of all survivors - and these repatriatees largely included the survivors in hiding or in partisan units from eastern Poland.<br /><br />In case you're about to wheel out the 'six million' figure, none of us at HC regard this as the most probable death toll - we would tend more towards 5-5.5 million. <br />Nicholas Terryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14852758011968360596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-86032520491673032532018-04-27T06:12:15.889+01:002018-04-27T06:12:15.889+01:00What happened to Polish Jews?
[Quote] In the year...What happened to Polish Jews?<br /><br />[Quote] In the years 1939-1941, the Soviets deported about 1.5 million Polish citizens (about 52 percent ethnic Poles) from territories of eastern Poland, conquered as a consequence of te Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact. The Nazis deported about 930,000 Poles from the territories incorporated into the 3rd Reich ... most deportees did not survive the exile.[/quote] <br />(Page 141)<br />https://books.google.com/books?id=FPxhOu_n1VYC&lpg=PA538&dq=3&pg=PA110#v=onepage&q=1.5%20million&f=false666isMONEYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04278844324811261409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-47430183468383898102018-04-26T18:30:08.999+01:002018-04-26T18:30:08.999+01:00The numbers of Jews in the Soviet camps and specia...<br />The numbers of Jews in the Soviet camps and special settlements have been published by us and you were given the link at least twice, a long time ago. <br />You've made no argument as to the cremation times and methods so your words are about as valuable as a fart. <br />Normally burial is a good way and they were burying corpses in the camps until there were too many, and they began having problems with ground water, stench etc. And of course even aside from that sooner or later they would have to hide the evidence.<br />What the Nazis could have done is not an argument against what they did. You're engaging in an obvious and silly fallacy.<br />Gassing in tunnels doesn't make any practical sense whatsoever. You can't gas smaller groups, ventilating is a pain, tunnels cannot credibly be masked as showers, the whole procedure is much more cumbersome - you unload the people, make them undress, then load them again (without any shower excuse) then you have to unload the corpses and clean up the cars. But why? At the core it's the same gassing procedure but with many unnecessary steps involved, very Rube-Goldbergesque. Only a denier can think up nonsense like this.<br /><br />Gas generator engine is not easily controllable, CO concentrations are much higher - explosion danger.<br /><br />The optimal way was to gas people is with gasoline engines in smaller chambers (or with CO bottles for smaller groups), the second optimal way was to use the readily available Zyklon B.<br /><br />Interesting how the Nazis used specifically the most optimal methods, not the impractical nonsense suggested by the deniers. They knew what they were doing.Sergey Romanovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04063444062099331337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-62354379362004377052018-04-26T16:57:47.462+01:002018-04-26T16:57:47.462+01:00Thank you for the book reference Statistical Mecha...Thank you for the book reference Statistical Mechanic. I have just ordered a copy.<br /><br />A big thank you to Sergey for a very impressive article.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16056222846385544904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-19490171173049354472018-04-26T13:40:58.888+01:002018-04-26T13:40:58.888+01:00In addtion to Nathan's comment above, there is...In addtion to Nathan's comment above, there is a recent (2017) book that examines the question of Jewish refugees in the USSR, Edele, Fitzpatrick & Grossman, Shelter from the Holocaust: Rethinking Jewish Survival in the Soviet Union. In their chapter in this book, Edele and Warlik conclude that of the approximately 3 million Polish Jews, at least 146,100 and as many as 384,600 Polish Jews escaped German occupation by way of the USSR, probably closer to the lower figure. As to the numbers of Jews in the Gulag, prior to 22 June 1941, the Soviets deported large numbers of people from the areas acquired under the Non-Aggression Pact and protocols; about 70,000 of these deportees were Jews (not all of these deportees were sent to the Gulag). I recommend the full book for a more complete picture of Jewish survival in the USSR during the war.Statistical Mechanichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00692815834132828535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-53507742607545316752018-04-26T12:08:29.713+01:002018-04-26T12:08:29.713+01:00-Pit burning of corpses is absurd, so are your cre...-Pit burning of corpses is absurd, so are your cremation times.<br /><br />The best way to dispose of a lot of animal carcasses would be a rendering plant or burial somewhere the corpses would not pollute the water table. There is no evidence of this at Auschwitz which wa—<br /><br />Nope. Pit burning was scientifically proven by the experiments of Lothes and Proffe. Their theories were successfully put into practice by mass corpse cremation in Dresden. The people who carried these out were also chosen because they successfully used the same methods by Lothes and Proffe decades earlier. Cremation experiments by a Scientist named Etting also validated the methods the Nazis used. We also have air and ground photos showing Pit burning at Auschwitz. Your whining is absurd.<br /><br />The Nazis actually tried mass burials, but it didn’t work because of the sheer number of bodies. This was why they resorted to pit burning. They were smarter than you it seems, since they understood that all it took to deal with the “water table” was a drainage system, something man has mastered since ancient times. Your failure to grasp something as simple as a drainage system shows that your speculations about “better” methods are worthless, since quite frankly, you’re an idjit who don’t know what you’re talking aboit. Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02660486969581542489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-70412952560104033372018-04-26T11:55:14.324+01:002018-04-26T11:55:14.324+01:00- Roberto, the numbers for population transfers in...- Roberto, the numbers for population transfers into the Soviet Union, deaths in Gulags and work camps are not “well known-<br />Actually they are, and have been since fhe Soviet Archives were opened in the late 80s before the USSR collapsed. We have paper trail for the “special groups” sent to “special exile”. The largest groups were 700,000+ Germans, 500,000+ Former Kulaks and 400,000+ Chechen and Ingush. The Gulags had something like 700,000-1,000,000 inmates during the Holocaust, so we’re 100% certain the Jews didn’t end up there. Give it up. You’re as ignorant of Soviet history as you are of the Holocaust.<br /><br />- Jews were oppressed under Stalin-<br />This is probably the only thing you got right. Stalin had no love for the Jews, which is why we’re sure he didn’t help “fake” the Holocaust: he had no reason to do them any favors by giving them “propaganda”.Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02660486969581542489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-64944487404346058222018-04-26T05:25:59.046+01:002018-04-26T05:25:59.046+01:00Roberto, the numbers for population transfers into...Roberto, the numbers for population transfers into the Soviet Union, deaths in Gulags and work camps are not “well known”. Jews were oppressed under Stalin. Truth about happened there is embarrassing for Russian history. The Wikipedia article on the Gulags does not even mention how many Jews were in those.<br /><br /><br />Pit burning of corpses is absurd, so are your cremation times.<br /><br />The best way to dispose of a lot of animal carcasses would be a rendering plant or burial somewhere the corpses would not pollute the water table. There is no evidence of this at Auschwitz which was like a swamp.<br /><br />Nazis could have gassed the Jews in the tail cars in a tunnel with the fumes from the coal-fired engine. Could have used the exhaust gas from the crematoria.666isMONEYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04278844324811261409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-66559421529123998302018-04-24T13:03:04.971+01:002018-04-24T13:03:04.971+01:00@blate121666
Thanks for the information. Very us...@blate121666 <br /><br />Thanks for the information. Very useful for when I should decide to dig deeper into oven cremation (don't know when that will be). <br /><br />4-5 corpses per hour is fine. No doubling required.Roberto Muehlenkamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03608133715777146924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-54339006617458358502018-04-24T01:58:07.710+01:002018-04-24T01:58:07.710+01:00I'm re-reading that patent. Since the links w...I'm re-reading that patent. Since the links were broken when I wrote that last post I wasn't referencing the patent and was just going on memory. I've fixed the links and am looking over that again.<br /><br />For one corpse at a time:<br /><br />The desiccation and combustion happens at about 1200C-1300C and takes about 20-30 minutes. The remnant that drops down into the next chamber (the ash chamber for the AB ovens) would take about 10 to 15 minutes to finalize the cremation at about 800C-900C.<br /><br />The numbers would of course be different for multiple corpses at a time. And I speculate would be as I wrote in my last post. I speculate that one could get average corpse per muffle cremation rates of about 4-5 corpses per hour with this method. Or about 15 minutes per corpse (although no one corpse would be cremated of course in 15 minutes - this would be the average of course).<br /><br /><br />Tauber claims that he doubled that rate; but I don't believe such to be possible based on the maximum rates one sees for air-curtain carcass incineration.<br /><br />http://ssl.tamu.edu/edss/handbook/02_ThermBur.pdf<br /><br />RM might be particularly interested in the liquid fuel used in the air-curtain carcass incinerations as mentioned at that link (table 2)blake121666https://www.blogger.com/profile/07355647679491593871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-59382876381707713362018-04-24T01:32:21.215+01:002018-04-24T01:32:21.215+01:00RM might wish to wrap his mind around the technolo...RM might wish to wrap his mind around the technology claimed in Topf's post-war patent 861731.<br /><br />https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3141&p=123329<br /><br />For some reason the links are down right now (links to postimg). They are images of pages 249-253 of book 2 of Mattogno's The Cremation Furnaces of Auschwitz. And then pages 193-196 of book 1 of the same Mattogno book.<br /><br />In short, the idea behind the patent is that the initial chamber is has very high heat (like 1200C) and it quickly (15-20 minutes) dries out and combusts the corpse - wherein it then drops down into a second chamber at lower heat (about 900C-1000C) to fully incinerate the remains from this (takes about 10 to 15 minutes). Then the ashes drop down into a third chamber into an urn.<br /><br />If one were to claim that a similar rig was used in the AB ovens then there'd be no need for any "coarse cremation" as RM speculates. The full cremation would occur in the ash chamber for however long it took (possibly hours for many corpses). But the initial combustion is what would determine the cremation rate. That would determine when one could reload with new corpses.<br /><br />As an example. Say you loaded 3 corpses into the muffle at time zero. Say it takes about 40 minutes for those 3 corpses to dry out, combust, and fall through to the ash chamber. Then you load 3 more corpses into the muffle. Therefore your average cremation rate would be 3 corpses in 40 minutes if you did this procedurally. So the average cremation rate would be (40 minutes / 3 corpses) or 13.33 minutes per corpse.<br /><br />The remnants in the ash chamber would take longer and would continually have more remnants being added to it. But these remnants are much smaller than the amount initially combusted. The AB oven ash chambers were about 70% the size of the combustion part of the muzzle. So the ash chamber could accept many remnants.<br /><br />As the patent discusses, at temperatures above about 1000C, the nitrogen loosens its bonds to the proteins - releasing combustible hydrocarbons from the corpses' proteins. This happens more and more efficiently above this temperature. But the firebrick can't handle temperatures above about 1200C. So this area of the oven needs to be about 1200C.<br /><br />The bones harden and don;t cremate at these high temperatures though. So the ash chamber needs to be kept below about 900C to be able to cremate them.<br /><br />Such as this is the model RM should be thinking about w.r.t. the AB ovens. Read through the patent and my posts about this at RODOH.<br /><br />Now Tauber claims that the procedure he used was something like 4-5 corpses every 1/2 hour. I have not been able to find incineration rates this high to be possible. I am basing my numbers above on carcass incineration rates that I have researched.blake121666https://www.blogger.com/profile/07355647679491593871noreply@blogger.com