tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post2185138772282795807..comments2024-03-29T02:19:32.860+00:00Comments on Holocaust Controversies: Thomas Dalton responds to Roberto Muehlenkamp and Andrew Mathis (2)Nicholas Terryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14852758011968360596noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-78946023540357799192011-11-05T08:16:05.577+00:002011-11-05T08:16:05.577+00:00This is ludicrous. The Holocaust has been dissecte...This is ludicrous. The Holocaust has been dissected time and time again, in history books and trials.<br /><br />The Korherr report does mention the decline in the number of Jews in the 3 Baltic states -- which the Nazis were occupying at the time!<br /><br />Himmler changed the language of Korherr's report to present it to Hitler, who already is known to have ordered Euthanasia. The Doctors and staff who practiced this method of destroying life were the ones sent to the Aktion Reinhard(t) camps. There is nothing to prove or disprove.<br /><br />Ausrottung, meaning extirpation or extermination. But it doesn't mean "evacuation " because there was nowhere to send the Jews and other victims to! The doctors were already tried on their use of poison gases (plural) and phenol injections. Over 40 ss men testified to the gassings, as did the staff of "I.G. Farben" which produced the stuff.SenorPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00838100938662916922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-56771089851479068922010-04-29T13:16:29.038+01:002010-04-29T13:16:29.038+01:00"The rolling steppes of eastern Ukraine are p...<i>"The rolling steppes of eastern Ukraine are part of Europe from any point of view, IIRC. "<br /><br />Actually you will find that the very meaning of Ukraine is "Borderlands"</i><br /><br />Still Europe, bunny. No carrot. <br /><br /><i>"He does have a precise breakdown of these 2.5 million indeed......these 2.5 million are all described as evacuated."</i><br /><br />Some are described as excess mortality, actually. Regarding others (the ones evacuated "in" the occupied Soviet territories, for which only a part of the number of deaths is known to Korherr), evacuation obviously means death. And all those 2.5 million were lost to Europe's Jewry without ever leaving Europe. <br /><br />Korherr left the term "Sonderbehandlung" standing in one place in the report, by the way - contrary to instructions received. He must have overlooked it when rewriting the document: <br /><br /><i>Evakuierungen insgesamt(einschl.<br /> Theresienstadt und einschl.<br /> Sonderbehandlung)............ <br />1 873 549 Juden<br /> ohne Theresienstadt.......... <br />1 786 356 "</i>Roberto Muehlenkamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03608133715777146924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-3056846586098445392010-04-29T13:07:14.989+01:002010-04-29T13:07:14.989+01:00"
The rolling steppes of eastern Ukraine are ..."<br />The rolling steppes of eastern Ukraine are part of Europe from any point of view, IIRC. "<br /><br />Actually you will find that the very meaning of Ukraine is "Borderlands"<br /><br />He does have a precise breakdown of these 2.5 million indeed......these 2.5 million are all described as evacuated.shipoffoolshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00107963600647441371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-23528027026940145632010-04-29T12:49:53.895+01:002010-04-29T12:49:53.895+01:00"However, the Rabbit never ducks a challenge....<i>"However, the Rabbit never ducks a challenge. You asked<br />"And if he could explain what Korherr could possibly considered to have happened to 2.5 million Jews who had a) been lost to the European Jewish population of 10 million in 1937 but b) not moved to continents other than Europe, that would be even better."<br /><br />Korherr said this:<br />"Dazu kommen die Wanderungsströme der Juden innerhalb<br />Russlands in den asiatischen Bereich hinüber. Auch der Wan-<br />derungsstrom der Juden aus den europäischen Ländern außer-<br />halb des deutschen Einflußbereichs nach Übersee ist eine<br />weitgehend unbekannte Größe"<br /><br />So the remaining Jews are not in the Asia areas of Russia and not in Europe.<br /><br />That leaves the rolling steppes of eastern Ukraine"</i><br /><br />The rolling steppes of eastern Ukraine are part of Europe from any point of view, IIRC. <br /><br />And for those 2.5 million Korherr has a rather precise breakdown, as I pointed out in an earlier post. He is certainly not including them in the bunny's "Wanderungsströme". <br /><br />I wouldn't even call that a nice try. <br /><br />Jews on the rolling steppes of eastern UkraineRoberto Muehlenkamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03608133715777146924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-4591465462127798482010-04-29T12:33:01.852+01:002010-04-29T12:33:01.852+01:00My my, what a messy report Korherr is supposed to ...My my, what a messy report Korherr is supposed to have written and how many knots we have to tie ourselves into to fit into a extermination narrative. I mean look how way off he was with the Auschwitz numbers!<br /><br />However, the Rabbit never ducks a challenge. You asked<br />"And if he could explain what Korherr could possibly considered to have happened to 2.5 million Jews who had a) been lost to the European Jewish population of 10 million in 1937 but b) not moved to continents other than Europe, that would be even better."<br /><br />Korherr said this:<br />"Dazu kommen die Wanderungsströme der Juden innerhalb<br />Russlands in den asiatischen Bereich hinüber. Auch der Wan-<br />derungsstrom der Juden aus den europäischen Ländern außer-<br />halb des deutschen Einflußbereichs nach Übersee ist eine<br />weitgehend unbekannte Größe"<br /><br />So the remaining Jews are not in the Asia areas of Russia and not in Europe.<br /><br />That leaves the rolling steppes of eastern Ukraineshipoffoolshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00107963600647441371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-15674370983211425342010-04-29T12:15:31.126+01:002010-04-29T12:15:31.126+01:00"However, I agree with Nolte. So that leaves ...<i>"However, I agree with Nolte. So that leaves us with 3 options<br /><br />1. When Korherr said in June 1943 that there were 4 million Jews in Russia he was gabbling meaningless nonsense"</i><br /><br />He may have overestimated, which is not "meaningless nonsense" such as the bunny gabbles. It's just an overestimate. <br /><br /><i>"2. He was referring to Jews on both sides of the front line."</i> <br /><br />Hardly so, as the Jews on the German side of the frontline in the occupied territories of the USSR were mostly dead by the time. It should also be taken into account that Korherr mentions Russia along with Hungary and Romania, two countries where Jews were outside Germany's reach at the time. <br /><br /><i>"3. He was referring to Jews outside Europe but in German occupied USSR - I am looking at eastern Ukraine at the moment, but always open to suggestions."</i><br /><br />Korherr's ten million figure for Europe obviously included the USSR, of which the Germans only occupied the European part anyway. Besides, he is expressly referring to the European continent when mentioning "Russia", which also suggests that he considers all of Russia "European" for this purpose. <br /><br />That leaves alternative 1 as the likeliest. Korherr simply overestimated the number of Jews outside German reach in the Soviet Union. <br /><br />Now, if the bunny could answer my question in the previous post, that would be good. <br /><br />And if he could explain what Korherr could possibly considered to have happened to 2.5 million Jews who had a) been lost to the European Jewish population of 10 million in 1937 but b) not moved to continents other than Europe, that would be even better. They were not there anymore but they hadn't moved out either - so what had happened to them?Roberto Muehlenkamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03608133715777146924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-81053631530765034922010-04-29T11:29:46.553+01:002010-04-29T11:29:46.553+01:00What a song and dance over a typo. Does this keep...What a song and dance over a typo. Does this keep you happy?<br /><br /> littlegrey said...<br /><br /> "The number of Jews who didn't fall into German hands was just about 2.4 million according to Nolte."<br /><br /> Muhahaha, I love it how Hoaxsters fall back on Nolte when it suits them.<br /><br /> However, I agree with Nolte. So that leaves us with 3 options<br /><br /> 1. When Korherr said in June 1943 that there were 4 million Jews in Russia he was gabbling meaningless nonsense<br /><br /> 2. He was referring to Jews on both sides of the front line<br /><br /> 3. He was referring to Jews outside Europe but in German occupied USSR - I am looking at eastern Ukraine at the moment, but always open to suggestions.shipoffoolshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00107963600647441371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-48570432933178241962010-04-29T11:14:26.535+01:002010-04-29T11:14:26.535+01:00> Roberot
One more "slip up" like th...> Roberot<br /><br />One more "slip up" like that and you're out forever, little bunny.Sergey Romanovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04063444062099331337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-15262569421278120442010-04-29T11:11:20.677+01:002010-04-29T11:11:20.677+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.shipoffoolshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00107963600647441371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-88574274055584982642010-04-29T10:21:30.438+01:002010-04-29T10:21:30.438+01:00As to the bunny's "there goes everyone su...As to the bunny's <i>"there goes everyone supposedly killed by the Einsatzgruppen"</i>, he may try to explain this: <br /><br /><i>That Korherr was aware of tabulating mass murder also becomes apparent from further parts of his report. Thus, under item 6 of chapter V on page 9 of the "long" version, he wrote the following (my translation):<br /><br /> 6. In addition, according to data from<br /> the Reichssicherheitshauptamt<br /> there is the evacuation of... 633 300 Jews<br /> in the Russian territories<br /> incl. the former Baltic<br /> countries since the beginning of the<br /> Eastern Campaign.<br /><br />How the Jews could have conceivably been evacuated in the Russian territories, the claimed destination of most other "evacuees" mentioned in this chapter, Korherr did not explain. And if this alone didn’t already make clear what said "evacuation" meant, Korherr spelled it out in the final chapter X of the "long" version, where he wrote the following (my translation and emphases):<br /><br /> It must not be overlooked in this respect that of the deaths of Soviet Russian Jews in the occupied Eastern territories only a part was recorded, whereas deaths in the rest of European Russia and at the front are not included at all.<br /><br />The only other place in the "long" version where Korherr mentioned Soviet Russian Jews was the above-quoted item 6 of chapter V on page 9, so it is clear that the term "evacuation" in that item means nothing other than "deaths of Soviet Russian Jews" in the passage quoted immediately above, Korherr pointing out that the figure of such deaths given to him by the Reichssicherheitshauptamt was only a partial figure.</i>Roberto Muehlenkamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03608133715777146924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-34992281105244259132010-04-29T10:18:20.171+01:002010-04-29T10:18:20.171+01:00If he is saying that in mid 1943 there were 4 mill...<i>If he is saying that in mid 1943 there were 4 million Jews in Russia on the other side of the front line, then there goes everyone supposedly killed by the Einsatzgruppen.</i> <br /><br />If he is saying in mid-1943 that there were 4 million Jews in Russia on the other side of the front line, his estimate is way to high. The number of Jews who didn't fall into German hands was just about 2.4 million according to Nolte. <br /><br /><i>As for this<br />"He's saying that four million Jews are already dead"<br /><br />He most certainly is not.<br />He is saying for the Altreich there was<br />560 000 voluntary (sic) emigration<br />80 000 excess deaths over births<br />220 000 Evakuierung<br /><br />For the former Polish areas he says he cant determine what proportion was voluntary (sic) emigration and what was excess deaths but combined the number is 760 000<br />From these regions there is also 1 500 000 Evakuierung<br /><br />From the other occupied countries he estimates 845 000 Evakuierung<br /><br />This total comes up to 4 million.<br /><br />You are saying that Evakuierung means death. In which case, bizarrely, you have two death columns. The Evakuierung in total comes up to 2.500 000. To that you can add the 600 000 mentioned as "evakuiert" in the longer report in the former USSR, plus those in the unconquered areas adds up nicely to around 4 million.</i> <br /><br />Utter nonsense. Korherr says that the Jewish population of Europe went down by 4 million since 1937 and by 5 million since 1933. Of these 5 million that have been lost to European Jewry since, 2.5 million didn't go to other continents, according to Korherr. That means he considers them dead. The 2.5 million order of magnitude tallies with the with the sum of<br /><br />i) excess mortality in the Old Reich, the Ostmark (Austria) and the Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia according to chapter II of the "long" version (82,776, thereof 61,193 in the Old Reich including the Sudetengau and Danzig, 14,509 in the Ostmark and 7,074 in the Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia);<br /><br />ii) mortality in the Theresienstadt ghetto according to item 1 of chapter VI of the "long" version (reduction from 87,193 to 49,392, "mainly by deaths"); and<br /><br />iii) "evacuations" until 31.12.1942 according to chapters V and VI of the "long" version, except for items 1 ("Evacuation of Jews from Baden and the Palatinate to France") and 3 ("Evacuation of Jews from the Reich area and the Protectorate to Theresienstadt"), as detailed hereafter:<br /><br />1. Greater Germany: 124,051<br />1a. (thereof German Reich including Sudetenland)(1): 60,763<br />1b. (thereof Austria) (2): 33,333<br />1c. (thereof Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia)(3): 29,955<br />2. Belgium: 16,886<br />3. France: 41,911<br />4. Norway: 532<br />5. Yugoslavia: 4,927<br />6. Netherlands: 38,571<br />7. Former Polish Republic: 1,496,283<br />7a. (thereof "Eastern Provinces"): 1,449,692<br />7b (thereof Bialystok District) (4): 46,591<br />8. Slovakia: 56,691<br />9. Soviet Union incl. Baltic Republics: 633,300<br />SUM TOTAL: 2,413,152 <br /><br />The difference between the 2.5 million he considered dead and those he considered lost to Jewish population stock in total - 4 million since 1937, 5 million since 1933 - is an educated guess including both known emigration numbers and categories for which Korherr had no precise figures, like deaths of Soviet Russian Jews in the "occupied eastern territories" not included in his tabulations, deaths in the rest of European Russia and at the front, movements of Jews inside Russia to the Asian part thereof, Jewish emigration and Jewish excess mortality in the states of central and western Europe other than Germany. As concerns deaths, Korherr apparently chose to stay on the safe side of what his detailed figures added up to.Roberto Muehlenkamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03608133715777146924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-40538905187673404912010-04-29T10:04:26.046+01:002010-04-29T10:04:26.046+01:00Its complete Chutzpah to use the Korherr report to...<i>Its complete Chutzpah to use the Korherr report to support extermination. In the short version it has the following:<br /><br />" Die Ver-<br />minderung des Judentums in Europa dürfte damit bereits an<br />4 Millionen Köpfe betragen. Höhere Judenbestände zählen auf<br />dem europ. Kontinent (neben Rußland mit etwa 4 Mill.) nur noch<br />Ungarn (750 000) und Rumänien (302 000), vielleicht noch<br />Frankreich."<br /><br />"High Jewish numbers counted in the European continent (besides Russia with around 4 million) now only Hungary 750000 and Rumania 302 000, perhaps also France."<br /><br />What a strange coincidence, the Germans announce a large forced emigration program and 4 million Jews turn up in Russia.</i><br /><br />It just happens that there were 2,570,330 Jews in "Russia" already in 1926, according to Korherr's count. This didn't include the Baltic countries Latvia (93,479 Jews in 1935, according to Korherr) and Lithuania (155,125 Jews in 1923, according to Korherr), later incorporated in the Soviet Union. Incorporation of Eastern Poland and parts of Romania in 1940 further swelled the Jewish population of the USSR, to 5.1 million as of 22 June 1941 according to historians Robel and Nolte. All this happened prior to the German invasion and had nothing to do with the Nazis "evacuation" or "transportation to the Russian East". Then the bunny's heroes entered the Soviet Union and proceeded with the reduction of that country's Jewish population.Roberto Muehlenkamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03608133715777146924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-49959675986750420782010-04-29T02:50:33.081+01:002010-04-29T02:50:33.081+01:00If he is saying that in mid 1943 there were 4 mill...If he is saying that in mid 1943 there were 4 million Jews in Russia on the other side of the front line, then there goes everyone supposedly killed by the Einsatzgruppen.<br /><br />As for this<br />"He's saying that four million Jews are already dead"<br /><br />He most certainly is not.<br />He is saying for the Altreich there was<br />560 000 voluntary (sic) emigration<br />80 000 excess deaths over births<br />220 000 Evakuierung<br /><br />For the former Polish areas he says he cant determine what proportion was voluntary (sic) emigration and what was excess deaths but combined the number is 760 000<br />From these regions there is also 1 500 000 Evakuierung<br /><br />From the other occupied countries he estimates 845 000 Evakuierung<br /><br />This total comes up to 4 million.<br /><br />You are saying that Evakuierung means death. In which case, bizarrely, you have two death columns. The Evakuierung in total comes up to 2.500 000. To that you can add the 600 000 mentioned as "evakuiert" in the longer report in the former USSR, plus those in the unconquered areas adds up nicely to around 4 millionshipoffoolshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00107963600647441371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-75186032711855193972010-04-29T01:55:40.911+01:002010-04-29T01:55:40.911+01:00Yeah, that's not what he's saying.
He'...Yeah, that's not what he's saying.<br /><br />He's saying that four million Jews are already dead, and there's probably another four million in Russia, 750,000 in Hungary, 300,000 in Romania, and probably some left in France (because of the Vichy government not being under direct Nazi administration).<br /><br />Those four million in Russia were already there. And you can check the Wannsee Protokol see them numbered there. That number is actually *down* from a larger number present there at the beginning of the century.<br /><br />Nice try though.Andrew E. Mathishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13057529769573506419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-79421539960202710752010-04-29T00:31:03.685+01:002010-04-29T00:31:03.685+01:00(This comment really belongs here)
Its complete C...(This comment really belongs here)<br /><br />Its complete Chutzpah to use the Korherr report to support extermination. In the short version it has the following:<br /><br />" Die Ver-<br />minderung des Judentums in Europa dürfte damit bereits an<br />4 Millionen Köpfe betragen. Höhere Judenbestände zählen auf<br />dem europ. Kontinent (neben Rußland mit etwa 4 Mill.) nur noch<br />Ungarn (750 000) und Rumänien (302 000), vielleicht noch<br />Frankreich."<br /><br />"High Jewish numbers counted in the European continent (besides Russia with around 4 million) now only Hungary 750000 and Rumania 302 000, perhaps also France."<br /><br />What a strange coincidence, the Germans announce a large forced emigration program and 4 million Jews turn up in Russia.shipoffoolshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00107963600647441371noreply@blogger.com