tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post1448926579129176684..comments2024-03-20T07:25:58.202+00:00Comments on Holocaust Controversies: Sonderkommando Kulmhof in German Documents - Body DisposalNicholas Terryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14852758011968360596noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-58520997379884090402018-08-27T21:39:39.973+01:002018-08-27T21:39:39.973+01:00"Who are the open minded Codoh Reviosnist pos..."Who are the open minded Codoh Reviosnist poster active at present, in your opinion"<br /><br />I don't what your experience has been with them , but it does seem that Atigun(although he has had slips of the tongue), PotPie, Zulu, Excalibur and Sailor are not prone to the same hysterical utterances as most so called "revisionists" are, and actually seem to me like fairly informed people and do not take anything at face value. Again, that is from my observations on what they post at the Codoh. What your experience has been in debating these people and what you think of them, is something only you know.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-68483140240512231622017-09-30T15:37:37.817+01:002017-09-30T15:37:37.817+01:00- It's also easy to make a fuss about this-and...- It's also easy to make a fuss about this-and-that implausible detail in the testimony of this-and-that eyewitness. Such implausible details one is likely to find in the testimony of everyone who had traumatic experiences, including for example people who lived through the Dresden bombing and told stories about it that were downright preposterous (which doesn't mean that these people were lying - they firmly believed in what they recalled having seen or heard).-<br /><br />To add to Roberto's excellent point, I would say that while not making them automatically true, "Implausible details" would indicate that the person giving the testimony or account is doing so honestly, from a sincere effort to describe their own unique experiences in their own words. "Mistakes" happen because they're talking spontaneously and struggling to describe what happened to them. It's "clean" and "perfect" accounts that you need to be suspicious of. That would suggest that the person giving the testimony was coached before hand or reading from a script, like the Malmedy trial defendants who were all coached by their defense attorneys into falsely talking about how they were "tortured". Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02660486969581542489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-26770083634389816312017-09-26T00:59:37.793+01:002017-09-26T00:59:37.793+01:00Thinker, let me invite you here:
http://www.skepti...Thinker, let me invite you here:<br />http://www.skepticforum.com/viewforum.php?f=39<br /><br />You seem like a rational sort.J Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04893548775462142380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-12701102260648484552017-09-26T00:58:10.272+01:002017-09-26T00:58:10.272+01:00Thinker, I'd like to invite you here:
http://w...Thinker, I'd like to invite you here:<br />http://www.skepticforum.com/viewforum.php?f=39<br /><br />Reading your comments I think we would welcome you there.<br />J Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04893548775462142380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-58152343279375762312017-09-26T00:56:15.345+01:002017-09-26T00:56:15.345+01:00@Thinker:
"There are plenty of revisionists I...@Thinker:<br />"There are plenty of revisionists I have seen that more calm and more rational.....Werd, with whom you have evidently had alot of experience with."<br /><br />"Calm" and "rational" are not the words I'd use to describe werd. J Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04893548775462142380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-66128930893251867082017-09-25T22:05:23.795+01:002017-09-25T22:05:23.795+01:00Well, re-read your statement above carefully. I wi...Well, re-read your statement above carefully. I will even quote it for you.<br /><br />"Fine, if you want me to assume Lisciotto is indeed a liar, then I surrender."Sergey Romanovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04063444062099331337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-5146808803871332262017-09-25T18:28:23.170+01:002017-09-25T18:28:23.170+01:00Really? Transparent? I have to admit that you have...Really? Transparent? I have to admit that you have some good sense of humor.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-69065115723511153462017-09-24T19:56:52.712+01:002017-09-24T19:56:52.712+01:00Dude you are transparent.Dude you are transparent.Sergey Romanovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04063444062099331337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-21498407111116595562017-09-24T19:48:36.597+01:002017-09-24T19:48:36.597+01:00Wow looks like someone is hysterical. Putting thou...Wow looks like someone is hysterical. Putting thoughts into my mind is the best thing you can do, it seems.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-41006407969528755292017-09-24T18:29:44.845+01:002017-09-24T18:29:44.845+01:00"But I'm doing it only because of peer pr..."But I'm doing it only because of peer pressure, not the evidence you guys have presented. Because deep down I think you might indeed be the comic book villains that guy, whose style I find sober and factual and not at all psychotic, alleges you are. Haha."Sergey Romanovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04063444062099331337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-77632045831054485462017-09-24T17:13:55.473+01:002017-09-24T17:13:55.473+01:00Fine, if you want me to assume Lisciotto is indeed...Fine, if you want me to assume Lisciotto is indeed a liar, then I surrender.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-9151893264638657352017-09-24T13:48:17.424+01:002017-09-24T13:48:17.424+01:00«I don't believe that is the case. There are c...«I don't believe that is the case. There are certainly revisionists that are open minded, from what I have seen over at CODOH, RODOH and other forums. Those like Hannover give them a bad name.»<br /><br />Who are the open-minded CODOH "Revisionist" posters active at present, in your opinion?Roberto Muehlenkamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03608133715777146924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-25181601183103159772017-09-24T13:45:12.435+01:002017-09-24T13:45:12.435+01:00«As for Lisciotto, I honestly cannot tell who is r...«As for Lisciotto, I honestly cannot tell who is really telling the truth here. Its a real mess.» <br /><br />So you think that someone whose behavior suggests a compulsively lying psychopath has the same chances of being right as researchers whose work is <a href="http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.pt/2017/01/traffic-and-publicity-of-holocaust.html" rel="nofollow">acknowledged and even quoted by scholarly and other reputable sources</a>, which obviously don't take Lisciotto's accusations seriously? <br /><br />If so, I can only underline what Sergey wrote. <br /><br />Lisciotto even opened a forum in which alter-egos of his did nothing other than produce defamatory stuff about certain HC bloggers (like the ludicrous claim that my father was an SS-officer who happened to have the same surname). We on the other hand don't usually talk about Lisciotto at all. If we're doing it know, that's just because you happened to bring up his name and rants.Roberto Muehlenkamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03608133715777146924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-69477450595303772202017-09-24T13:44:45.671+01:002017-09-24T13:44:45.671+01:00«On the other hand, not every single thing Hannove...«On the other hand, not every single thing Hannover says is pure manure. At times, he does show glimmers of light and actually does at times expose some deliberate twisting on the side of the believers.» <br /><br />When does he do that? <br /><br />When he makes a fuss based on secondary or tertiary sources about the Auschwitz "ash pond", and then fails to provide a primary source (like an eyewitness testimony or a contemporary document) about human cremation remains having been dumped into that pond, after being confronted with the accounts of two witnesses who, independently of each other, recalled that cremation remains were dumped into the Vistula river? <br /><br />Or when he censors posts that would confront him with inconvenient questions, such as why Rudolf Höss brazenly told his Polish interrogators (who are supposed to have coerced him into being compliant) that the death toll of Auschwitz-Birkenau was in the order of one million, and that much higher estimates, which the Poles would have wanted Höss to confirm, were products of fantasy? <br /><br />Or when he yells "fake" at every photograph captioned as showing victims of NS crimes, and then fails to provide any evidence of fakery? What is more, he yells "fake" at every photograph showing victims of mass violence unless captioned as showing victims of a crime committed by people he doesn't like or indifferent to his ideological beliefs. This can lead to situations that would be comical if the subject matter were not so horrible. Not long ago I showed another CODOH poster (or better, tried to show, as the post was censored) a fairly large number of photographs on which dead bodies obviously related to mass violence can be seen, just to bring home the point that one cannot reasonably expect photographs to prove any large-scale mass dying and/or mass killing by themselves, due to the obvious limitations of the camera eye (in order to photographically document just 10,000 corpses, for instance, you need at least 50 different photographs, assuming that you can show 200 corpses on every photo, which is a rather generous assumption to say the least). I omitted the captions and informed the (intended) other poster about that, and also about some of these photos being captioned as showing victims of Nazi crimes while others are not. In the "disapproval" notification he sent me in his capacity as CODOH moderator, "Hannover" yelled "fakes" at the whole lot and thereby unwittingly also proclaimed photos from the German "Amtliches Material über den Massenmord von Katyn" (which according to "Revisionists" is the standard that all documentation of a mass crime must meet in order to prove such crime) to be "fakes". <br /><br />It's easy to point out inaccuracies, even deliberate ones, in certain low-quality secondary or tertiary sources, especially such that have a journalistic character and are not based on much if any research. About as easy as pointing out that, notwithstanding claims to the contrary in press and secret service reports prior to the 2003 US invasion of Iraq, Saddam Hussein had no weapons of mass destruction. It's much more difficult to argue against the actual evidence and its assessment by thorough researchers. The latter is what the historical record is made of, the former is not. <br /><br />It's also easy to make a fuss about this-and-that implausible detail in the testimony of this-and-that eyewitness. Such implausible details one is likely to find in the testimony of everyone who had traumatic experiences, including for example people who lived through the Dresden bombing and told stories about it that were downright preposterous (which doesn't mean that these people were lying - they firmly believed in what they recalled having seen or heard).Roberto Muehlenkamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03608133715777146924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-84742080006981116042017-09-24T13:43:20.329+01:002017-09-24T13:43:20.329+01:00«All right, I will accept the evidence that Chelmn...«All right, I will accept the evidence that Chelmno was an extermination camp.»<br /><br />That's good. <br /><br />«Hannover should not be taken seriously by either side of the debate. He is always so abnoxious that it is unbelievable that he claims that he wants the truth, when all he does is yell at the his opponents.»<br /><br />If he only yelled that wouldn't be so bad. The most obnoxious thing about "Hannover" is that he censors every opposition post that is too inconvenient for his taste, i.e. too likely to place "Revisionists" (especially himself) in an uncomfortable argumentative situation, and then performs victory dances (on CODOH and/or through his alter-ego "Lily" on the RODOH forum) as if he had "won" the debate by superior arguments. <br /><br />«However, I have myself dealt with many similar people on the Holocaust believer side who refuse to address my arguements and this one believer on YouTube tried to accuse me of being a "Jew hater" and "Nazi" when he realized he couldn't withstand the power of my arguements. Its kinda of sad to watch.» <br /><br />I'm sure that there are emotional and inarticulate people on both sides who resort to ad hominem because they cannot present proper arguments. Inability to present proper arguments is more understandable on the "Revisionist" side, which has little to go by, than on the side that accepts the established historical record. A debater on the latter side has plenty of evidence to choose from and could easily corner his "Revisionist" opponent if he has made himself familiar with the relevant evidence and is articulate enough to duly present such evidence and related arguments. Which means that the behavior you describe, if coming from a non-"Revisionist", is sadder to watch that it would be if coming from a "Revisionist".Roberto Muehlenkamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03608133715777146924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-769515933786940152017-09-24T12:53:36.165+01:002017-09-24T12:53:36.165+01:00Also, before the person in question decided to go ...Also, before the person in question decided to go after authors of Holocaust Controversies, he performed similar stalking and smearing attacks on people completley unrelated to HC, <a href="http://forums.nitroexpress.com/printthread.php?Board=doubles&main=43875&type=post" rel="nofollow">members of a gun forum</a>. He is evidently a trouble maker who was looking for a new victims at the time he targeted HC.Hans Metznerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07746792258730274681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-44901179516294903282017-09-24T09:21:17.451+01:002017-09-24T09:21:17.451+01:00> As for Lisciotto, I honestly cannot tell who ...> As for Lisciotto, I honestly cannot tell who is really telling the truth here<br /><br />Well, that tells me everything I needed to know about you.<br /><br />That you cannot decide who is more credible, the three people (tested throughout the years) who witnessed all this (me, Nick, Roberto) or a psycho (quite obvious from the texts he wrote) who created dozens of fake blogs and online personas (not to mention <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20100707005233/http://www.deathcamps.org/arc/" rel="nofollow">tried</a> to falsify the <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20031003220418/http://www.deathcamps.org/whodoeswhat/" rel="nofollow">history</a> of the website) shows you are not able to weigh evidence properly.Sergey Romanovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04063444062099331337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-54579389573291802732017-09-24T07:44:40.920+01:002017-09-24T07:44:40.920+01:00Revisionists have to ask themselves how a camp
- ...Revisionists have to ask themselves how a camp<br /><br />- consisting of nothing but a rotten mansion (the so called palace), a church, a granary and a forest area full of mass graves and cremation sites <br /><br />- receiving about 100,000 Jews unfit for work until Summer 1942 <br /><br />- without any outgoing transports of Jews (dead-end, except for those few who managed to escape and reported on the mass murder)<br /><br />- with no housing, infrastructure, hygienic installations for anyone beyond the German Sonderkommando and its working details<br /><br />- sending the hand luggage and personal items back to Litzmannstadt, where most of the Jews came from anyway (logistic absurdity, unless part of the "resettlement" deception)<br /><br />- taking all the money and valuables of the Jews, just paying action of transporting them to Kulmhof, but then transfering the 2/3 surplus to a black bank account in Posen instead of financing the survival of the alleged resettled Jews <br /><br />- described by more than 100 witnesses as extermination site<br /><br />- without any witness describing the resettlement of the Jews, not even by those perpetrators who denied knowledge of the mass killings and had all the reason to come up with a plausible alternative<br /><br />- which stands in contrast to the well documented transfer of fit Jews from Litzmannstadt to the Generalgouvernement and counties of the Warthegau<br /><br />can be anything else than an extermination camp.Hans Metznerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07746792258730274681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-82650124449685613242017-09-24T04:47:23.097+01:002017-09-24T04:47:23.097+01:00Excuse me for my grammar mistakes. I was typing th...Excuse me for my grammar mistakes. I was typing this on a phone.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-63822546239472632622017-09-24T04:45:11.871+01:002017-09-24T04:45:11.871+01:00I don't believe that is the case. There are ce...I don't believe that is the case. There are certainly revisionists that are open minded, from what I have seen over at CODOH, RODOH and other forums. Those like Hannover give them a bad name.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-71991847687751851672017-09-24T01:48:46.411+01:002017-09-24T01:48:46.411+01:00All right, I will accept the evidence that Chelmno...All right, I will accept the evidence that Chelmno was an extermination camp. <br /><br />Hannover should not be taken seriously by either side of the debate. He is always so abnoxious that it is unbelievable that he claims that he wants the truth, when all he does is yell at the his opponents. However, I have myself dealt with many similar people on the Holocaust believer side who refuse to address my arguements and this one believer on YouTube tried to accuse me of being a "Jew hater" and "Nazi" when he realized he couldn't withstand the power of my arguements. Its kinda of sad to watch. <br /><br />On the other hand, not every single thing Hannover says is pure manure. At times, he does show glimmers of light and actually does at times expose some deliberate twisting on the side of the believers.<br /><br />As for Lisciotto, I honestly cannot tell who is really telling the truth here. Its a real mess.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-65175614083155551452017-09-23T23:13:41.242+01:002017-09-23T23:13:41.242+01:00From my own experience I think Heink was both prim...From my own experience I think Heink was both primitive and hateful.Sergey Romanovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04063444062099331337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-38298116854373301682017-09-23T14:50:49.907+01:002017-09-23T14:50:49.907+01:00«There are plenty of revisionists I have seen that...«There are plenty of revisionists I have seen that more calm and more rational than him, such as Jansson and Werd, with whom you have evidently had alot of experience with. Jansson doesn't seem to be a hateful bigot, despite that he may be wrong about something things, which from my experience at looking at the debates, is not exclusive to the revisionist side.» <br /><br />Discussing with <a href="http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.pt/search/label/Jansson" rel="nofollow">Jansson</a> and other less primitive "Revisionists" (especially <a href="http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.pt/search/label/Heink" rel="nofollow">Wilfried Heink</a>, may he rest in peace, and Jason Myers, a former "Revisionist" who posted as "Wahrheitseeker" and is now a HC blogger) was usually interesting, even challenging. I haven't come across other "Revisionists" that were similarly knowledgeable and articulate - and at the same time less hateful. <br /><br />«On the other hand, I am inclined to disagree with you on Chelmno. From my own observation, all the proof we have for it being an extermination camp is essentially these documents and eye witness testimonies. So there is my quibble about it.» <br /><br />Why the "quibble"? The eyewitness and documentary evidence showing that Chelmno was an extermination camp is pretty clear-cut. There is also <a href="http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.pt/2010/12/mattogno-on-chemno-mass-graves.html" rel="nofollow">archaeological evidence</a>. That body of evidence is at least as much as you have regarding most mass crimes in history. Actually there's more regarding Chelmno than regarding, say, any Soviet mass crimes other than the Katyn massacre, and perhaps also the Vinnitsa massacre. And what is more, the Chelmno evidence has been examined by the judicial authorities of a democratic state applying defendant-friendly procedural rules (the German Federal Republic). What mass crimes other than NS crimes have been subject to objective judicial investigation/examination? None that happened before or at the same time, as far as I know. And very few (e.g. Bosnia and Rwanda) afterwards. Last but not least, there's no evidence whatsoever supporting the notion that Chelmno was anything other than an extermination camp, namely that it was a transit camp through which deportees were sent to what Korherr called the "Russian East". <br /><br />As to Lisciotto's defamatory rants against me and other HC bloggers in the wake of <a href="http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.pt/2006/10/on-demise-of-deathcampsorg-how-fakes.html" rel="nofollow">these events</a>, they are water off a duck's back. I hope for you that you don't take them seriously (Mattogno, Graf and Kues made fools of themselves on account of that). Apart from the former being a "Revisionist" (of the primitive sort), and the latter accepting the established historical record, there's little if any difference between "Hannover" and Lisciotto, actually. Both are compulsive liars with obvious psychopathic traits. I can only feel sorry for them.Roberto Muehlenkamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03608133715777146924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-68823207160039574122017-09-23T12:17:16.213+01:002017-09-23T12:17:16.213+01:00Thinker,
It were certainly a good start if "...Thinker, <br /><br />It were certainly a good start if "Revisionists" would finally start considering the full range and depth of evidence on Kulmhof extermination camp. <br /><br />Though I am not too enthusiastic that it will make a difference to most of them, as in my experience their conviction is usually not only fuelled by lack of historical knowledge but also lack of reasonable methodology. If somebody believes that numerous corroborating evidence from different types of sources does not make a point over something supported by almost nothing in comparison, then this series won't make a difference either.<br /><br />BTW, the next posting will be on the funding and plundering of Sonderkommando Kulmhof, which stands also in stark contrast to the Revisionist resettlement hypothesis.Hans Metznerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07746792258730274681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-91032400280612969592017-09-23T00:57:02.362+01:002017-09-23T00:57:02.362+01:00You are talking about Hannover, right? Or is the m...You are talking about Hannover, right? Or is the moderator a different person?<br />In any case, I am going to have to agree with you on Hannover. He sees "Jewish supremacists" that only exist in his head every where he goes. I just find it entertaining how he accuses you of being a "Zionist" and "Jew" with out any proof. There are plenty of revisionists I have seen that more calm and more rational than him, such as Jansson and Werd, with whom you have evidently had alot of experience with. Jansson doesn't seem to be a hateful bigot, despite that he may be wrong about something things, which from my experience at looking at the debates, is not exclusive to <br />the revisionist side. <br /><br />On the other hand, I am inclined to disagree with you on Chelmno. From my own observation, all the proof we have for it being an extermination camp is essentially these documents and eye witness testimonies. So there is my quibble about it.<br /><br />On a side note, I do find Lisciotto's rants against you, true or not, entertaining.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com