tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post116663842722199608..comments2024-03-20T07:25:58.202+00:00Comments on Holocaust Controversies: «B» as in «Bullshit»Nicholas Terryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14852758011968360596noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-1166925390530050882006-12-24T01:56:00.000+00:002006-12-24T01:56:00.000+00:00>http://www.fpp.co.uk/overflow/Dresd>en_gallery/im...>http://www.fpp.co.uk/overflow/Dresd>en_gallery/images/0033.jpg<BR/><BR/>>If we estimate about 50 bodies at >50 kg each, that requires over >1000 kgs of wood.<BR/><BR/>>In this photo it would lucky if >there was even 10 kgs.<BR/><BR/>Yep, that's why I said that my calculations of Treblinka wood requirements may be on the high side. The photos as well as Irving's and Taylor's descriptions suggest that huge amounts of gasoline poured over the bodies did the job at Dresden, and if that was possible at Dresden it also was possible at Treblinka.Roberto Muehlenkamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03608133715777146924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-1166924704349411432006-12-24T01:45:00.000+00:002006-12-24T01:45:00.000+00:00>"And even those calculations may be on the high s...>"And even those calculations may be on the high side, if one thinks about the amount of wood >and straw they could have poked under the steel girders at the Dresden Altmarkt, described >by Irving and Taylor. "<BR/><BR/>>Its an interesting point. Irving and Taylor basically base this on the famous photos of the >Altmarkt which show 2 metre piled bodies on a very low set of rails with smoked wrapped >around.<BR/><BR/>Really? Where do Irving and Taylor say that? My «described by Irving and Taylor» referred to the steel girders, not to what was placed underneath. <BR/><BR/>>As Roberto's researches into burning animal corpses would indicate to him these photos seem >a very unlikely arrangement for effecient pyres. <BR/><BR/>Yeah, engineer Heepke might have bemoaned the lack of a pit underneath the grids, but then you wouldn’t expect the Dresden city authorities to remove the cobblestones of the Altmarkt in order to make a pit, would you? And even with this less-than-Heepkian arrangement, the bodies were burned to ashes, according to Irving and Taylor, and efficiently so according to the latter. <BR/><BR/>>And would still leave quite a mess in the Altmarkt to be disposed.<BR/><BR/>Yeah, I guess they had nothing to sweep up the ashes and bone fragments with, and also no containers or sacks to place them inside and take them to the cemetery. Taylor, quoted under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/12/incinerating-corpses-on-grid-is-rather_18.html: <BR/><BR/>«Afterward, when the fire cooled down, it was estimated that between eight and ten cubic meters of ash covered the cobbled surface of the medieval square. The SS in charge of the burning had intended to transport the ashes out to the Heath Cemetery in boxes and sacks and bury them containers and all, but municipal parsimony triumphed. In the end the ashes were simply emptied out of their containers and into the prepared pits, thus enabling the valuable sacks and boxes to be reused.»<BR/><BR/>>Given that the photos were 'discovered' by senior Dresden communist figures during the >1950s or 1960s when the Communist regime was trying to blame hugely excessive death toll >estimates on the Allies and by extension West Germany elites, I believe there is a real >question mark over the authenticity of these photos.<BR/><BR/>Even assuming you’re right about who discovered these photos, your «bad Commies this-and-that» - preconceived notions hardly qualify as an argument against the photographs’ authenticity, also because documentation kept in the Dresden city archives, which belies those hugely excessive death toll estimates, corroborates what is shown on the photos, the incinerations on the Dresden Altmarkt. <BR/><BR/>>particularly since the work of Professor Evans which brilliantly dissects the mendacity of Post >war communist accounts of Dresden and quite authoratatively establishes a death toll that >would not require any large scale mass cremation in the Altmarkt and would be entirely >consistant with the number of mass graves in the various Dresden Friedhofs.<BR/><BR/>You didn’t read what Evans wrote, did you? <BR/><BR/>Here’s what Evans wrote in his expert opinion submitted at the Irving-Lipstadt trial; the link to this section is http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.com/evidence/evans005.asp : <BR/><BR/>«11. Conclusive evidence is supplied by burial figures. According to Irving ‘history relates that the last mortal remains of 28,746 air the raids’ victims found their last resting place on the Heidefriedhof cemetery.’ The figure of 28,746 in the Heidefriedhof comes from the cemetery’s head gardener Zeppenfeld, who is quoted by Seydewitz as haven giving this total from the head-count of those buried and the ashes of 9,000 bodies burnt on the Altmarkt. In fact, as we know, 6,865 people were burnt on the Altmarkt. Bodies were also buried at the Johannisfriedhof cemetary. Weidauer quotes the director of administration that 3,660 victims of the attack were buried there. In 1993, new official material was found from the Dresden burial offices [Marschall- und Bestattungsamt] confirming the exact number of those buried. Quite contrary to Irving’s image of chaotic and botched mass-burials, the counting of the dead was conscientiously carried out, with the figures being reported regularly to the city administration. Exactly 17,295 bodies had been buried in the Heidefriedhof cemetary, including the ashes of the 6,865 people burnt on the Altmarkt. In addition to the 3,462 burials in the Johannisfriedhof cemetary, 514 were buried in the Neue Annenfriedhof cemetary. This gives a total of 21,271 registered burials. Head gardener Zeppenfeld’s figure of 28,746 thus overestimated the true number by more than 7,000, unsurprising perhaps, given the fact that it lacked any written authentication and was arrived at only in a rough and ready way. The official figures are far more likely to be closer to the truth.»<BR/><BR/>Official data from the Dresden burial office mention 17,295 bodies buried and 6,865 burned on the Altmarkt. Evans considers these figures more reliable than gardener Zeppenfeld’s higher figures that Irving relied on. <BR/><BR/>>As this implies some criticism of the communist ideology which Mr Romanov is so fond, <BR/><BR/>Accusing Sergey of being fond of communist ideology is horseshit, as you well know. <BR/><BR/>>he will find it necessary to censor this comment.<BR/><BR/>No, if your post is deleted, it will be because your trolling is not tolerated here, as you also know very well. <BR/><BR/>>Pity <BR/><BR/>Is what I feel for you, Mr. L.Roberto Muehlenkamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03608133715777146924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-1166924261346310992006-12-24T01:37:00.000+00:002006-12-24T01:37:00.000+00:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.rodohcodohwatchwatchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12387384648483245895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-1166924166527704402006-12-24T01:36:00.000+00:002006-12-24T01:36:00.000+00:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.rodohcodohwatchwatchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12387384648483245895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-1166919539965717002006-12-24T00:18:00.000+00:002006-12-24T00:18:00.000+00:00Rodohcodohwatchwatch:>Its an interesting point. Ir...Rodohcodohwatchwatch:<BR/>>Its an interesting point. Irving and >Taylor basically base this on the >famous photos of the Altmarkt which >show 2 metre piled bodies on a very >low set of rails with smoked wrapped >around.<BR/><BR/>Really? How do you know that Irving and Taylor only base this on the Dresden photos?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-1166830072566440252006-12-22T23:27:00.000+00:002006-12-22T23:27:00.000+00:00>Thanks, but what caused them to burn? Was it the ...>Thanks, but what caused them to burn? Was it the exploding petrol tank, like in Teigman's account?<BR/><BR/>Yes, it was the petrol tanks. Not corpse-burning like bud would like us to believe. <BR/><BR/>How silly to think that a prisoner can pick up a burning log, run tens of meters, light the fence, wait for the fire to subside, and run past the second fence, all without being shot by the guards armed with pistols and machine guns.<BR/><BR/>;-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-1166776234524001542006-12-22T08:30:00.000+00:002006-12-22T08:30:00.000+00:00>Could you please quote the >pertinent excerpt fro...>Could you please quote the >pertinent excerpt from his account?<BR/><BR/>>Samuel Willenberg, Surviving >Treblinka, page 141:"The dry Pine >branches we had woven into the >fence burned as well." <BR/><BR/>Thanks, but what caused them to burn? Was it the exploding petrol tank, like in Teigman's account?Roberto Muehlenkamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03608133715777146924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-1166743002912803102006-12-21T23:16:00.000+00:002006-12-21T23:16:00.000+00:00>Could you please quote the >pertinent excerpt fro...>Could you please quote the >pertinent excerpt from his account?<BR/><BR/>Samuel Willenberg, <I>Surviving Treblinka</I>, page 141:"The dry Pine branches we had woven into the fence burned as well."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-1166693137987476852006-12-21T09:25:00.000+00:002006-12-21T09:25:00.000+00:00Sobe, Thanks for the information about Willenberg....Sobe, <BR/><BR/>Thanks for the information about Willenberg. I checked in other testimonies about the Treblinka uprising and found the following in the excerpt from Teigman’s testimony at the Eichmann Trial transcribed under http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/teigmanrevolt.html : <BR/><BR/>«In addition to that, there was a large tank of petrol near the garage. I think it must have contained several thousands litres of petrol. This tank was also set on fire. It exploded and spread flames along the fence, which was covered with dried foliage, and it began burning.» <BR/><BR/>So the foliage on the fence may indeed have been somewhat drier than usual at the time of the uprising, but what set it on fire, according to Teigman, was an explosion of several thousand liters of petrol, not a match or a burning log like Bud claims would have been sufficient. I also don’t infer from Teigman’s testimony that the fire quickly spread throughout the whole fence, as Bud claims would have happened. <BR/><BR/>What does Willenberg write about this? Could you please quote the pertinent excerpt from his account?Roberto Muehlenkamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03608133715777146924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-1166665110334850812006-12-21T01:38:00.000+00:002006-12-21T01:38:00.000+00:00Roberto,regarding the dryness of the pine boughs, ...Roberto,regarding the dryness of the pine boughs, I thought that you should know that Samek Willenberg in his book "Surviving Treblinka" mentions the camp fence being set on fire, which indicates that, at that time, the pine boughs in the fence had to be dry.<BR/><BR/>Keep in mind of course that this does not necessarily imply that the pine boughs in the fence were ALWAYS dry.<BR/><BR/>If you don't have his book you can also find part of it transcripted in Donat's Treblinka book.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com