tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post8588885354262927029..comments2024-03-17T20:28:40.281+00:00Comments on Holocaust Controversies: Rebuttal of Alvarez on Gas Vans: The Turner LetterNicholas Terryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14852758011968360596noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-81903397610592543612016-05-08T23:17:07.531+01:002016-05-08T23:17:07.531+01:00Aaron, http://holocaust.skeptik.net/documents/soap...Aaron, http://holocaust.skeptik.net/documents/soap.htmSergey Romanovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04063444062099331337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-58697829763888866472016-05-08T14:37:11.250+01:002016-05-08T14:37:11.250+01:00Hunt has been conclusively discredited in just abo...Hunt has been conclusively discredited in just about every way. His Treblinka video was found to be more or less a complete fabrication from start to finish, where the "evidence" he used was not in keeping with his "thesis" after independent vetting. We must assume that all of his "videos" are similarly unreliable. Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03218089864137630577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-12688092800630454112016-05-08T14:24:27.688+01:002016-05-08T14:24:27.688+01:00image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/18/1462579390-un...image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/18/1462579390-unnamed.jpg<br />Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00463782333657722247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-22157102516828363122016-05-08T09:12:41.812+01:002016-05-08T09:12:41.812+01:00Indeed, another fallacy at heart here is that prop...Indeed, another fallacy at heart here is that propaganda amounts to lying or to wholesale fabrication. This ignores the fact that the best propaganda is truthful.<br /><br />Katyn was propaganda on the Nazis' part (and they lied quite a lot about it in fact, if you care to examine their claims - although they did get the core right), but it also happened. The Danzig human soap itself was absolutely real - it was just blown out of proportion as propaganda (it wasn't a part of the Nazi policy). And so on. Keeping propaganda as well as the fog of war in mind is actually pretty useful for explaining some of the exaggerations that happened, incl. the 4000000 death toll. And it is also not that hard to separate the wheat from the chaff for fair-minded and honest researchers. Which deniers demonstrably are not.<br /><br />To sum up: Any real atrocity will be used for propaganda. That doesn't make the atrocity unreal.<br /><br />Gas vans certainly were used as propaganda too - e.g. through the two Soviet trials - and they were undoubtedly real (as Hans' presentation, among other things, conclusively demonstrates).Sergey Romanovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04063444062099331337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-3132743421653451742016-05-08T02:45:43.096+01:002016-05-08T02:45:43.096+01:00I'll take this back to gas vans by pointing ou...I'll take this back to gas vans by pointing out that bhigr, like Alvarez, is simply repeating a mantra that "propaganda existed in WW2 therefore we can wave away any document or testimony because it 'could' have been produced by whatever machine produces propaganda." This is as lame as saying that the USA uses propaganda against Al Qaeda and ISIS (that is undoubtedly true) therefore every bombing, beheading or mass execution carried out by these groups could be a false flag and/or hoax, irrespective of the evidence that exists for it being done by AQ/ISIS.<br /><br />Hans' series has shown that HD is not much more than this fallacy. We demand a lot more from deniers if they want to sustain a conversation on here.Jonathan Harrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07929794273877529591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-55242720486946439352016-05-07T19:51:41.769+01:002016-05-07T19:51:41.769+01:00What part of Hans' comment is not clear?What part of Hans' comment is not clear?Sergey Romanovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04063444062099331337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-2352971229583152732016-05-07T19:29:07.793+01:002016-05-07T19:29:07.793+01:00Okay, enough talking about Hunt. This posting is a...Okay, enough talking about Hunt. This posting is about German gas vans. Hans Metznerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07746792258730274681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-4245720102213759972016-05-07T19:22:06.146+01:002016-05-07T19:22:06.146+01:00No, sorry, you were spamming. Your initial questio...No, sorry, you were spamming. Your initial question concerned our rebuttal to Hunt. We've explained why you shouldn't expect one (which is not to say that we won't do it; it just wouldn't have a high priority for us, to put it mildly). We've also shown that Hunt is a liar, including several of the points made in that same video. You have completely ignored these points and went on on listing all the *other* points you want us to address, even after I told you to stop JAQing off. It was pure spam at that point.<br /><br />The thing is, whether or not some or other "exhibit" was in the propaganda territory has no relation to the question of the Holocaust. Just as showing that Katyn was used as propaganda by the Nazis bears no relation to the question of whether Katyn was real. Suppose you show that the soap and the lampshades were propaganda. Oh gee, you've shown that there was propaganda! Something in which every side of any war engages. I.e. a given. You are still not a step closer to dealing with the actual evidence (or to showing that *this* evidence constitutes propaganda). Note that "there was propaganda, therefore all the evidence I don't like is propaganda" is not a valid argument.Sergey Romanovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04063444062099331337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-57504079595694447022016-05-07T19:02:12.508+01:002016-05-07T19:02:12.508+01:00First of all I didn't spam and I didn't ma...First of all I didn't spam and I didn't make insinuations by posing questions. I merely asked whether certain aspects of Hunts video are true. That's not jaqing off. That's to the point, namely Allied war Propaganda. It's Sad that an honest discussion is not possible here.bhigrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14248267297755180307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-41638773224639773772016-05-07T18:48:06.551+01:002016-05-07T18:48:06.551+01:00No spam allowed.No spam allowed.Sergey Romanovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04063444062099331337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-15747721270719631652016-05-07T17:59:02.862+01:002016-05-07T17:59:02.862+01:00"I'm just asking."
JAQ off somewher..."I'm just asking."<br /><br />JAQ off somewhere else.Sergey Romanovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04063444062099331337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-35734601901912800282016-05-07T17:58:16.600+01:002016-05-07T17:58:16.600+01:00Nice thread, Jon. This is also precious:
"so...Nice thread, Jon. This is also precious:<br /><br />"so to sum up - Here are your choices skeptics - <br /><br />A) The well was right next to this building, which as described in the November 1942 report which had terra cotta tiles, elaborate piping, and water heater. This description, of looking exactly like a shower room with terra cotta floors is repeated again by a Jew, Abraham Krzepicki, who went by there with many others several times to fetch water. This building was a REAL SHOWER.<br /><br />B) This was a homicidal gas chamber connected to a diesel engine, although diesel engines are terribly inefficient at killing people. There was a well next to this top secret gas chamber complex for no good reason, where prisoners from all over the camp came on different work duties to get water and be inches away from Jews getting gassed by the roomful, or even look inside when it wasn't in use. The remains of the almost 1 million gassed here mostly blew away."<br /><br />Really, using the diesel gambit after we've positively shown in our white paper that a petrol engine was used? (Not to mention all the other BS, like "almost a million" victims or there being only 1 well in Treblinka). The boy is damaged beyond repair.<br /><br />Arguing with Hunt would be like playing chess with a pigeon: no matter how good you are at chess, the pigeon will just knock the pieces over, shit on the board, and strut around like it's victorious.Sergey Romanovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04063444062099331337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-11144051908166234592016-05-07T17:29:24.918+01:002016-05-07T17:29:24.918+01:00So the stories about lampshades made out of Jewish...So the stories about lampshades made out of Jewish skin were not Allied Propaganda? The use of Allied bombing victims in Nordhausen as proof of a deliberate extermination policy of the Nazis was not Allied Propaganda? All this is false? I'm just asking.bhigrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14248267297755180307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-55357527589340500042016-05-07T17:00:15.866+01:002016-05-07T17:00:15.866+01:00"Well it wouldn't hurt right?"
It w..."Well it wouldn't hurt right?"<br /><br />It would absorb time and effort better spent on other priorities which are more interesting to pursue than Hunt's creepy and deranged shit. That's why we don't respond to Hargis or Werdo anymore, for example.Jonathan Harrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07929794273877529591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-31538035075790643222016-05-07T16:36:51.350+01:002016-05-07T16:36:51.350+01:00"Well it wouldn't hurt right?"
Go a..."Well it wouldn't hurt right?"<br /><br />Go ahead and do it. Nobody is preventing you.Sergey Romanovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04063444062099331337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-62523486982857807132016-05-07T16:24:09.587+01:002016-05-07T16:24:09.587+01:00bhigr:"Allied Propaganda".
You know, it...<i>bhigr:"Allied Propaganda"</i>.<br /><br />You know, it takes a certain amount of willful ignorance for someone to mouth off about "Allied Propaganda" in a thread where another, more informed person explicitly said that <i>"Dulles protected people who helped bring about the German surrender in Italy"</i> Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02660486969581542489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-42507644870061400742016-05-07T16:08:10.217+01:002016-05-07T16:08:10.217+01:00Eric Hunt is nothing but a liar. E.g. he edited He...Eric Hunt is nothing but a liar. E.g. he edited Heinz Rosenberg's testimony about working in the boiler room at the German Barracks in Minsk to make it sound like he was discussing showers in Treblinka. He's worthless.<br /> <br />www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=22911&start=40#top<br /><br />If Hunt rhymes with bothers Ryu and Bhigr so much, maybe <b>they</b> can do their own work and call out his BS, instead of depending on others to do it for them.Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02660486969581542489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-22469679998044107452016-05-07T15:37:14.425+01:002016-05-07T15:37:14.425+01:00Well it wouldn't hurt right? I mean the denier...Well it wouldn't hurt right? I mean the deniers will call you cowards and such...And let's face it. Eric is THE GUY now for deniers so debunking him would be a coup.Ryu238https://www.blogger.com/profile/10011281472578951724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-37399499077068124162016-05-07T13:05:17.666+01:002016-05-07T13:05:17.666+01:00We did engage the Ugly Voice once, but even his vi...We did engage the Ugly Voice once, but even his videos, although pretty much brain-dead, were more encompassing and "challenging", if you will. Hunt is a pale shade of the Ugly Voice. He brings nothing new to the table. He's a failure even as a denier.Sergey Romanovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04063444062099331337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-31906975707777199952016-05-07T12:50:38.625+01:002016-05-07T12:50:38.625+01:00You might as well ask us to do a point by point re...You might as well ask us to do a point by point refutation of the Moon Landing Hoax or Trump's claim that Ted Cruz's dad was part of the JFK assassination plot. We refute Mattogno because there's at least a facade of doing some research in his scribblings. Not so Eric, Werdo, Hannover and other cling-ons.Jonathan Harrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07929794273877529591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-78325569903170774802016-05-07T12:34:49.087+01:002016-05-07T12:34:49.087+01:00There is no pressing need for a point by point ref...There is no pressing need for a point by point refutation. Only an idiot would find something like this persuasive.<br /><br />E.g. at 2:10 he raises an obvious strawman: if the Germans [sic] wanted to kill all the Jews, why did any survive? Usually only a pure ignoramus would ask a question like that. I mean, read a book or two on the Nazi policy. Or think for a minute. But Hunt is not a total ignoramus, hence he's a fraud. The questions thereafter, including hospitals and bakeries in ext. camps, are in the same vein. He then engages in lying at around 5:20 when he juxtaposes the two changing camp death tolls with the "six million" figure, never bothering to show why the former should have influenced the latter (the Auschwitz plaque, for example, never said that those were 4 million *Jews*).<br /><br />IOW it's pure cheap propaganda for the rubes made by a mentally unstable felon, the core of which has been debunked a long time ago. He pulls at the rough edges of the historical narrative (like human soap, lampshades, Dachau gas chambers, etc.) which do not actually have great significance for the Holocaust history, never trying to prove his more grandiose claims, never addressing the *actual* evidence and never explaining the location of the missing Jews.<br /><br />At least Mattogno and Graf's lies are slightly more sophisticated.Sergey Romanovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04063444062099331337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-32791964410819263432016-05-07T09:07:57.381+01:002016-05-07T09:07:57.381+01:00I am looking forward to your refutation of Eric Hu...I am looking forward to your refutation of Eric Hunts new video<br /><br />"Questioning the Holocaust: Why We Believed (Part 1 of 2)"<br /><br />It appears to be a very powerful presentation of Allied Propaganda and lies relating to the Holocaust. Many viewers will start to question the story.Therefore a point by point refutation is necessary.bhigrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14248267297755180307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-72369039590807542412016-05-01T23:46:10.929+01:002016-05-01T23:46:10.929+01:00BROI:
"Academic studies detail how even the ...BROI:<br /><br />"Academic studies detail how even the most senior Nazis tried at the IMT were offered deals to induce the *right sort* of testimony about former colleagues.."<br /><br />This is not true. The study you cite goes on to show (pp.423-428) that Donovan's plea bargaining suggestion was rejected by Jackson, and that Donovan subsequently did not participate at Nuremberg.<br /><br />See also:<br /><br />"Justice Robert Jackson explicitly rejected plea bargaining at the Nuremberg trial." (John Hagan, Justice in the Balkans, p.138)<br /><br />PWNED Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03218089864137630577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-91717609289263997042016-05-01T20:25:27.848+01:002016-05-01T20:25:27.848+01:00Have you guys got a list of forensic & expert ...Have you guys got a list of forensic & expert material evidence, submitted to court for any of the holocaust trials? ie Nuremberg, auschwitz trials etc., ?<br /><br />ThanksAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18342566848312927270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-11241342427399032582016-05-01T00:20:38.396+01:002016-05-01T00:20:38.396+01:00BROI:
"Academic studies detail how even the ...BROI:<br /><br />"Academic studies detail how even the most senior Nazis tried at the IMT were offered deals to induce the *right sort* of testimony about former colleagues.."<br /><br />This is not true. The study you cite goes on to show (pp.423-428) that Donovan's plea bargaining suggestion was rejected by Jackson, and that Donovan subsequently did not participate at Nuremberg.<br /><br />See also:<br /><br />"Justice Robert Jackson explicitly rejected plea bargaining at the Nuremberg trial." (John Hagan, Justice in the Balkans, p.138)Jonathan Harrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07929794273877529591noreply@blogger.com