tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post4867110243801731292..comments2024-03-29T02:19:32.860+00:00Comments on Holocaust Controversies: A document that forced Mattogno to claim "forgery"Nicholas Terryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14852758011968360596noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-13036204426694155112016-02-07T17:18:17.213+00:002016-02-07T17:18:17.213+00:00The Daft Rabbit tried to pass off some bodies form...The Daft Rabbit tried to pass off some bodies form a typhus outbreak in the Winter of 42-43 as the reason for the smell. Pathetic in that the report was from some months beforehand. <br /><br />Also: Ostrow, IIRC is almost 20KM away from Treblinka as the crow flies, so a few dead bodies from an imaginary outbreak will not produce that level of stench.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03218089864137630577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-8329219923175357232016-02-02T12:54:50.483+00:002016-02-02T12:54:50.483+00:00«bobby: What's the rabbit trying to tell us?
...«bobby: What's the rabbit trying to tell us? <br /><br />That 148 typhus deaths at T1 in the winter of 43/44 would issue a stench perceived as unbearable miles away in October of 1942?<br /><br />Nope. You're having reading comprehension issues again. DasBrum partially understood at least.<br /><br />DasBrum The additional info he supplied us re Typhus at T1 in 43/44 contributed nothing to the discussion, which resulted in the above piece of witty sarcasm from Roberto.<br /><br />If you re-read the mule's post, you'll see he calculates an average daily death rate for T1. The additional info I supplied was something he didn't leverage for in his sums.»<br /><br />And the impact of the rabbit's blather on my argument that the stench couldn't have come from Treblinka I is exactly zero.Roberto Muehlenkamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03608133715777146924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-10880324101451840832016-02-01T20:29:45.843+00:002016-02-01T20:29:45.843+00:00Many years ago I started using the Black Rabbit of...Many years ago I started using the Black Rabbit of Inlé as an online moniker, can't remember why exactly. But I was a big fan of the film as a kid, I'm fan of the book too, although I was an adult before I got round to reading it.<br /><br />Anyway, I imagine the argument is that the graves in T2 were open, and filled with more bodies, hence why there were complaints about the smell, which apparently (to my knowledge) there weren't about Katyn, although it was winter when the Germans discovered Katyn.The Black Rabbit of Inléhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12083144769375557650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-73548985499489027682016-02-01T19:52:10.762+00:002016-02-01T19:52:10.762+00:00Oh, so sorry fluffy bunny, I misspoke.
My apologie...Oh, so sorry fluffy bunny, I misspoke.<br />My apologies.<br />By the way, as long as we are conversing, what made you come up with "Black Rabbit of Inle"?<br />I recognize it from "Watership Down," a beloved book from my childhood.<br />Back on topic, are you saying that 4,000 wouldn't stink? Or that the Soviets were better at concealment? I'll grant you they had more practice. I'd think the intelligent, advanced Germans could get rid of a few hundred bodies without stinking up the joint.J Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04893548775462142380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-39175961207827066252016-02-01T15:13:50.246+00:002016-02-01T15:13:50.246+00:00R Kelly: "Hell, the NKVD buried 4,000 Polish ...R Kelly: <i>"Hell, the NKVD buried 4,000 Polish Officers at Katyn. I've never heard of an issue with the stench of those bodies, the Germans found out because Polish villagers told them about the activity at the sight, not because of the stench."</i><br /><br />Polish villagers? In Smolensk!? lol, You're as bad as Caroline Sturdy-Colls who believes Katyn was "within the Soviet-occupied zone".<br /><br />Polish labourers, employed by OT, are reported to have learnt of the shootings at Katyn from Russian villagers, and passed that info onto the Germans. Who initially did nothing about it.<br /><br />IMT, 1 July 1946:<br /><br />DR. STAHMER <i>[Turning to the witness.] After your arrival at Katyn, did you notice that there was a grave mound in the woods at Katyn?</i><br /><br />[Colonel Freidich] <i>AHRENS: Shortly after I arrived-the ground was covered by snow-one of my soldiers pointed out to me that at a certain spot there was some sort of a mound, which one could hardly describe as such, on which there was a birch cross. I have seen that birch cross. In the course of 1942 my soldiers kept telling me that here in our woods shootings were supposed to have taken place, but at first I did not pay any attention to it. However, in the summer of 1942 this topic was referred to in an order of the army group later commanded by General Von Harsdorff. He told me that he had also heard about it.<br /><br />DR. STAHMER: Did these stories prove true later on?<br /><br />AHRENS: Yes, they did turn out to be true and I was able to confirm, quite by accident, that there was actually a grave here. During the winter of 1943-I think either January or February- quite accidentally I saw a wolf in this wood and at first I did not believe that it was a wolf; when I followed the tracks with an expert, we saw that there were traces of scratchings on the mound with the cross. I had investigations made as to what kind of bones these were. The doctors told me "human bones." Thereupon I informed the officer responsible for war graves in the area of this fact, because I believed that it was a soldier's grave, as there were a number of such graves in our immediate vicinity.</i><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />The Black Rabbit of Inléhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12083144769375557650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-91033007318140125382016-02-01T14:46:28.541+00:002016-02-01T14:46:28.541+00:00bobby: What's the rabbit trying to tell us?
...bobby: <i>What's the rabbit trying to tell us? <br /><br />That 148 typhus deaths at T1 in the winter of 43/44 would issue a stench perceived as unbearable miles away in October of 1942?</i><br /><br />Nope. You're having reading comprehension issues again. DasBrum partially understood at least.<br /><br />DasBrum <i>The additional info he supplied us re Typhus at T1 in 43/44 contributed nothing to the discussion, which resulted in the above piece of witty sarcasm from Roberto.</i><br /><br />If you re-read the mule's post, you'll see he calculates an average daily death rate for T1. The additional info I supplied was something he didn't leverage for in his sums.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />The Black Rabbit of Inléhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12083144769375557650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-58505072584038632502016-01-31T02:38:11.089+00:002016-01-31T02:38:11.089+00:00"It doesn't take a lot of bodies to stink..."It doesn't take a lot of bodies to stink up a place"<br /><br />Are you saying that the efficient Germans couldn't dispose of a few bodies so that they wouldn't stink or cause environmental issues?<br />If it is a matter of a few hundred bodies that's easy to take of, right?<br />Hell, the NKVD buried 4,000 Polish Officers at Katyn. I've never heard of an issue with the stench of those bodies, the Germans found out because Polish villagers told them about the activity at the sight, not because of the stench.J Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04893548775462142380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-15811552026689413882016-01-30T18:51:53.216+00:002016-01-30T18:51:53.216+00:00In the chaos that occurred after the camp opened (...In the chaos that occurred after the camp opened (the camp received more trains than it could "process") the guards resorted to shooting instead of gassing. Stangl reported the stench as he was driving in to take command. He also reported that as he drove in he saw bodies before driving into the main camp. This was in August of 1942.<br />So yes, absolutely some of the Jews died by other means than gassing. Undoubtedly some died on the way, some died by shooting, some died of epidemics. A large percentage died by gassing so, sorry, you failed.J Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04893548775462142380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-87429805999596764322016-01-30T13:40:55.859+00:002016-01-30T13:40:55.859+00:00As we're at it, there's no point in playin...As we're at it, there's no point in playing the deniers' game and trying to provide them with the one smoking gun that proves everything. There's no such thing as a piece of evidence that by itself proves any historical event or phenomenon. Historians work by piecing together various elements of evidence independent of each other - demographic data, physical finds, documents and eyewitnesses (if someone asks whether the Holocaust can be proven without recourse to "dubious" eyewitness testimonies, a good counter-question would be what historical event, namely what mass murder of similar magnitude, has ever been proven <i>without</i> recourse to eyewitness testimonies that are always "dubious" in one way or another, for the simple reason that human memory is fallible). <br /><br />A more promising approach is to tell deniers like, look, here's the case based on a convergence of all known evidence about what happened to all those deported Jews, now please present your own case and back it up with evidence. They can't provide the name (with proof) of even a single Jew who was "transited" via Belzec, Sobibór or Treblinka to the "Russian East", i.e. the territories known as the <i>Reichskommissariat Ostland</i>, the <i>Reichskommissariat Ukraine</i> or the Soviet territories under German military administration. For the reasons explained <br /><a href="http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.pt/2011/07/challenge-to-supporters-of-revisionist.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>, names of surviving "transited" Jews should be all over the place. Yet while the names of a large number of AR victims have been established (e.g. the Dutch Jews deported to Sobibór), not a single name of a "transited" Jew has ever become known, more than seven decades after the AR camps were closed down.Roberto Muehlenkamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03608133715777146924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-1284402440171269952016-01-30T13:14:11.741+00:002016-01-30T13:14:11.741+00:00«It has been reported by "eyewitnesses" ...«It has been reported by "eyewitnesses" that many Jews arrived to Treblinka dead already (see "Trap with a Green Frence, by Richard Glazar). Jews also were reported to have died during a typhus epidemic at Treblinka in the winter of 1942-43 (see same reference). It doesn't take a whole lot of bodies to stink up a place.»<br /><br />To stink up a place is one thing, to stink miles away from that place is another. Funny that the poster accepts Richard Glazar's testimony as evidence when it comes do Jews dead on arrival and typhus but not as concerns mass killing. <br /><br />«So it is plausible that the "unbearable smell of cadavers" are from those who died of those means. NOT from gas chambers. Your evidence fails the test... sorry."»<br /><br />Except, of course, that those who "died of those means" wouldn't have been so large in number that they couldn't have been properly buried within a short time, unless of course every train arrived full of dead bodies, which would mean mass murder by means other than gassing and be just as bad. Burying up to 200,000 corpses or more every month was a different problem, however. <br /><br />Mattogno obviously considered the document to be evidence to large-scale mass murder, after his pathetic attempt to blame the stench on the pits of Treblinka I had failed. Hence his equally pathetic attempt to dispute its authenticity.Roberto Muehlenkamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03608133715777146924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-81028940384561637992016-01-30T12:59:26.004+00:002016-01-30T12:59:26.004+00:00Thanks.
When I wrote "monstrous epidemic&qu...Thanks. <br /><br />When I wrote "monstrous epidemic", I wasn't thinking about a typhus outbreak among the relatively small population of a camp like Treblinka, of course. I had something like the <a href="http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.pt/2015/06/germs-vs-guns-or-death-from-mass.html" rel="nofollow">Black Death</a> in mind.Roberto Muehlenkamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03608133715777146924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-44678598395920795432016-01-30T09:44:41.938+00:002016-01-30T09:44:41.938+00:00On rodoh:
"Fair enough.
It has been report...On rodoh:<br /><br /><br />"Fair enough.<br /><br />It has been reported by "eyewitnesses" that many Jews arrived to Treblinka dead already (see "Trap with a Green Frence, by Richard Glazar). Jews also were reported to have died during a typhus epidemic at Treblinka in the winter of 1942-43 (see same reference). It doesn't take a whole lot of bodies to stink up a place. <br /><br />So it is plausible that the "unbearable smell of cadavers" are from those who died of those means. NOT from gas chambers. Your evidence fails the test... sorry.":<br /><br />http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2238&start=990#p72472Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-4057741734676384172016-01-30T03:03:39.888+00:002016-01-30T03:03:39.888+00:00Mattogno neglects to recall that the document was ...Mattogno neglects to recall that the document was uncovered after the war, in the fifties or sixties IIRC. Were it a forgery it would have been produced with a flourish at the IMT. <br /><br />Also: the document contains other passages about the need to improve conditions in a Heer Work camp somewhere in the area, and makes reference to a commission being formed by Polish prisoners, which would not have made it onto a forgery. I know this because some dumbass used said passages to try to prove that they referred to Treblinka when they clearly did not. <br /><br />And last time I checked, October is not a winter month. I don't know what the seasons are like in East Londontown, but "winter 42-43" refers to December-February in most definitions.<br /><br />Both the rabbit and Mattogno look like tools here. <br /><br />Excellent work Roberto.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03218089864137630577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-54165291613110357572016-01-29T19:11:41.541+00:002016-01-29T19:11:41.541+00:00I think the rabbit was suggesting the Typhus outbr...I think the rabbit was suggesting the Typhus outbreak of 1942-43 was the cause of an increased death rate at Treblinka and therefore the great stench came about from this. <br /><br />The additional info he supplied us re Typhus at T1 in 43/44 contributed nothing to the discussion, which resulted in the above piece of witty sarcasm from Roberto.<br /><br />Mind you, if the carrot cruncher is implying he has found the source of the stench, then someone better inform Mattogno, for it is he who appears to be kicking up a stink regarding the documents authenticity, in which case he probably believes their wasn't a stink in the first place !DasPrussianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04393315985932866161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-33299462852795564262016-01-29T15:55:16.157+00:002016-01-29T15:55:16.157+00:00The black dumbass is trying to tell us he's gr...The black dumbass is trying to tell us he's grasping at straws, as usual.<br />Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02660486969581542489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-61081576683650526282016-01-29T11:51:05.556+00:002016-01-29T11:51:05.556+00:00«This won't make much difference to your avera...«This won't make much difference to your average daily death rate at T1, but you still forgot it: A typhus epidemic hit T1 in the winter of 43/44 [see Mattogno, Treb., p.89]. 148 deaths recorded between November 12 to December 20.» <br /><br />What's the rabbit trying to tell us? <br /><br />That 148 typhus deaths at T1 in the winter of 43/44 would issue a stench perceived as unbearable miles away in October of 1942?Roberto Muehlenkamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03608133715777146924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-85750969190922189282016-01-29T10:02:06.669+00:002016-01-29T10:02:06.669+00:00"As a result of starvation and living in cold..."As a result of starvation and living in cold barracks during the winter of 1942-43, an epidemic of typhus broke out."<br /><br />- "Uprising in Treblinka", by Samuel Rajzman, Presented at the US Congress, March 1945<br /><br /><br /><br />This won't make much difference to your average daily death rate at T1, but you still forgot it: A typhus epidemic hit T1 in the winter of 43/44 [see Mattogno, Treb., p.89]. 148 deaths recorded between November 12 to December 20.The Black Rabbit of Inléhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12083144769375557650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-33569863504805920112016-01-28T17:54:23.401+00:002016-01-28T17:54:23.401+00:00Deniers often want documentary evidence to back up...Deniers often want documentary evidence to back up witness statements.<br />When this is provided they scream "forgery!!!" at the top of their lungs. It is impossible to make some people happy.<br />If the Holocaust is a hoax it is the most complex conspiracy in the history of the world, with tons of forged documents, thousands of intimidated witnesses, thousands of tortured alleged perpetrators and skillfully faked recreations at Auschwitz and Majdanek.<br />With no leaks. Ever.<br />All to create Isreal, a small Middle-Eastern state that as far as I know, has no significant natural resources.<br />Pure loony toons.J Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04893548775462142380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24597325.post-17477628714166666872016-01-28T02:10:42.272+00:002016-01-28T02:10:42.272+00:00It's not a forgery. Any real forger would make...It's not a forgery. Any real forger would make it sound as incriminating and explicit as possible. For example, it would state that Jews are being killed with Gas under Hitler's orders. Nope. The fact that it's circumstantial rather than direct evidence undermines any claims about Forgery.<br />Mattogno is a dumbass. Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02660486969581542489noreply@blogger.com